12 replies to this topic

[MasterBLB]

Hello Devs

You told us you're thinking about some tweaks for machine guns.I have several ideas whose maybe'll help you in this task.

Well,let's look at some real-life example at first and ammunition for it.
As we see,if used with AP or SLAP ammo this gun is pretty viable against armored vehicles.And all of that taking in mind it weight only 38 kg.Machine Gun in MWO weights 500 kg,so an assumption it'd be far more potent can be safetly made.

So,at this point it has been proven there are logic clues to make MGs a viable weapon.

Well,let's start with range.
Browning M2 has effective range 1800m,and maximum 4200m.If so,I think you can increase MGs effective range up to 270m without any imbalance.Moreover,it'd fit to MWO universe,where smaller callibers have far better ranges (but it'd be a bit too much if you'd made MGs range greater than AC2's one).Maximum range should be 810m.

Now damage.
It is clear MGs should get some damage buff,but it can't be thinked out theoretically,you have to make much tests to figure it on your own what number is correct.Just like Paul did for heat values tweaks for lage lasers and ppcs.

And the final,special MG feature.
Well,you mentioned something MG will have a high critical chance to deal extra damage and destroy internals when used against a section already stripped of armor.But the problem is,if someone has a weapon capable to strip the armor off,it does not need MGs to damage internals.
I propose a bit different approach,wchich would make MG unique weapon which still follows your assumption.
As mentioned in ammunition link,there are variety of AP ammunitions for currently existing guns.So why not to assume that MWO MG uses this kind of ammo?I'd tell more,it sounds logical to take such kind of ammo if you're going to fight against armored vehicles.
How it would work?
Each bullet should have a % chance not only to damage armor,but also internals covered by it.To make that even more realistic,both the chance and transferred damage amount should be calculated in formula whose basic should be armor value in the struck section.Of course,the bullets should retain your assumed increased critical chance,but toned due to the formula as well.
I see it like such now:
Critical damage if pierced through armor - 150% up to 200%
Critical damage if attacked a piece without armor - 300% to 500%

This way MG would be pretty good weapon with its unique flavor,viable to do something against fully healthy targers and very potent against heavily damaged ones.

Please devs,consider these ideas deeply.

Kind regards,
MasterBLB

Edited by MasterBLB, 08 February 2013 - 03:48 AM.

[Spectre999]

Quote

Machine Gun in MWO weights 500 kg,so an assumption it'd be far more potent can be safetly made.

http://en.wikipedia....i/GAU-8_Avenger
I think this is a better reference point, if you want something to compare the WMO machine guns to. this baby is slightly less than 300 kgs, but slap in some actuators and targeting systems, and you get the full 0,5 ton.

Anyways, such comparisons are moot, as mechwarrior has clearly parted ways with real-life logic, ballistics, etc.

I agree with your point about crit-seeking being kinda pointless, and I think the idea to increase to optimum range to 270m is a good starting point. Many players don't do enough damage with the dakka, because 90m is simply not a lot. Increase it to 270m (or 180m, it's a good value as well), and we'll see what then.

I'm not too keen about machineguns being able to pierce armor. I mean, if a machinegun round can do that, the gauss should be infinitely better, no?

Also, such lucky hits that penetrate armor would add a level of randomness to brawls with machineguns involved and I am not sure if it's a good thing. On the other hand, if MG ammo is able to penetrate, why shouldn't AC5 be able to do the same? or is HEAP ammo suddenly lostech? Anyways, I think you'd recognize that all ballistics should get equal treatment and that it would be a bit of an overkill.

That said, Machineguns really need to be made more useful. I know the crux of the problem lies in the fact that a ) MGs are anti-infantry, seen any infantry lately? and b ) mech HP values were doubled in MWO, which means they got hit by the carpy end of the stick twice.

Edited by Spectre999, 08 February 2013 - 09:17 AM.

[Codejack]

At this point, a better use would be to mount a catapult (not the mech, but an actual catapult) and use it to throw the machine guns at the enemy.

[focuspark]

Codejack, on 08 February 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

At this point, a better use would be to mount a catapult (not the mech, but an actual catapult) and use it to throw the machine guns at the enemy.

I use my MG to humiliate people. Cicada with 4x MG; when I get kills I shout "MG KILLED YA BABY!"

I have actually managed to kill a Dragon from full health with 4x MG and no help... of course he was stuck on some geometry and logged off I think. Death by 2000 paper cuts!!!

[MasterBLB]

@Spectre
The point of these comparison was to show that MG may be viable anti-mech weapon (thanks for reminding me the Avenger,btw)
And if all ballistic needs to be treated equally then MGs need to get significant damage buff.This armor piercing idea was used in case its damage will stay around current one.

[Bhael Fire]

Something to keep in mind about Battletech/Mechwarrior weaponry and ranges is that it's not based on real distances...it's based on BALANCED distances...distances that are fun to play.

That said, Machine Guns need some serious cuddle / face time, an apology letter, a box of chocolates, and some make-up sex.

[MasterBLB]

Hm Bhael Fire,don't you think even if they would raise MG's range up to 3 km that woudn't make it a good weapon?

[Bhael Fire]

No. It fits in well with the other ballistic weapons in this game, as far as it's range goes in the BT/MW universe.

It just needs a slight damage buff...especially against exposed internals.

(btw, 3 km range is insanely unfeasible for this game. The maps are barely that big. Like I said...realistic ranges MUST be scaled back in this game in the interest of game balance and fun.)

[Stringburka]

I think just crit damage needs to be increased. I mean, it makes sense. The weapon fires bullets that are too weak to penetrate the several tons of armor 'mechs wear, and isn't that effective at taking apart massive structural beams - but it can quickly tear up electronics, cut open cables and tubes etc. It makes sense, makes the machinegun a specialized weapon but still one with a purpose.

So if they increased it's crit damage to x5 or so of what it is, attacking with it would have a .4 DPS vs structure and armor, but if you expose it to actual modules it's crit DPS would be 1.24. Compare this to a small laser, which has same weight and range (and requires heatsinks instead of ammo). A small laser has a DPS vs armor/structure of 1, and a critical DPS of .62. (crit damage being 62% of regular damage due to % to crit).

I think that's comparable and fair, and if they do I'll consider putting one on my cicada for those moments there's an unarmored back torso in front of me.

I hear that's the solution they're going for, and for me it feels perfect. I just hope they increase crit damage _enough_, just double or so crit damage won't make it useful. But five times crit damage makes it comparable in balance to small lasers, which I feel is perfect.

Edited by Stringburka, 10 February 2013 - 03:30 AM.

[MasterBLB]

Well,about range I proposed some reasonable one already - 270m optimal,810 max.Comparable to other MWO ballistics and modern machine guns.
I also agree MG needs damage buff,especially critical one against unarmored sections,but overall as well.The question is,how much...but this has to be determined during tests by devs alone.

[Ipecac]

Spectre999, on 08 February 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

they got hit by the carpy end of the stick twice.

Ew, gross!

[Stringburka]

I like it as a short-distance weapon. It makes most sense to put on small, maneuverable 'mechs that way rather than the slow sluggers.

I want MG's to work best for the SDR-5K, not the AS7-K.

[Codejack]

Stringburka, on 10 February 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

I like it as a short-distance weapon. It makes most sense to put on small, maneuverable 'mechs that way rather than the slow sluggers.

I want MG's to work best for the SDR-5K, not the AS7-K.

I think they've already done that with the hardpoint system; Machine guns just aren't worth the slot on an Atlas, the weight is irrelevant.