238 replies to this topic

[Slugger2012]

Dear Devs,dear Piranha employees,

i really try to be polite and hold contenance,but....

P L E A S E remove that stealth capability from the god-damm f**** ECM system!!

The stealth feature has nothing,ABSOLUTLEY nothing in common to the original Battletech ruels!!

I don`t want to troll about game balance etc. - but i think Battletech shall remain Battletech..otherwise you could implent moronic devices like "teleport-system" or "cruise missile" up to "Macross-Mega-Fusion-Anti-Matter-Raygun" too....

Jamming of certain enemy devices - all right - thats what the Battletech Compendium says..nothing against that! But STEALTHING (exactly stealthing with ONE Mech 2(!!) complete lances ).... MAN ! You can't be serious with that ?!

My point of view is,you did an amazing an excellence job on this Game ! Really - amazing graphics,amazing sounds,superiour athmosphere...

but why in gods name do you muck up all this brilliant things with an absoloutley unrealistic (okay - never say realistic an Battletech in one way =) ) and state of the art rule-breaking ECM device ?!

I am really sick of running into an stealthed Atlas with a medium Mech and get immedately blasted to pieces by it! See ? ATLAS <-> STEALTH....c`mon..that`s idiotic !

If you want to implent stealth technology to this great game,I suggest you can realize this by ARMOR..(of course with adequate drawbacks)...like i posted some time before..i remember some level 3 rules supporting stealth armor..at least,i have read about it years ago..
BUT PLEASE NOT with that ECM !

Okay,I think i have calmed down a little bit...so far...so now here are my facts..:

Replace ECM with one thats true to the original BT-rules...removing stealth ****...otherwise,i really have to think about playing MWO for the future !

Want to play BATTLETECH..and definite NOT some ROBOT-METAL-GEAR-SOLID-STEATH crap !

so far...

[CoffiNail]

LOL It is called tactics, being aware of your surroundings. Not just tunnel vision straight ahead. Looking around and watching for movement. I really like ECM. Even if I die to a group of mechs in an ECM bubble. It is called superior tactics. It is not stealth, it is disrupting your sensors.

Keep aware of the world around you, and you are caught less off guard.

[Slugger2012]

CoffiNail, on 08 February 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

LOL It is called tactics, being aware of your surroundings. Not just tunnel vision straight ahead. Looking around and watching for movement. I really like ECM. Even if I die to a group of mechs in an ECM bubble. It is called superior tactics. It is not stealth, it is disrupting your sensors.

Keep aware of the world around you, and you are caught less off guard.

U re right with that...tactics will help...of course...but in fact,it has nothing in common to the original Battletech...thats whats ticking me of...like i said - i don`t want to troll about gameplay and balancing...i think,there has everyone his own point of view...

[focuspark]

Slugger is spot on. ECM is broken and needs to be fixed. Feel validated Slugger... a lot of us hate ECM as it is.

[Arpacolas]

CoffiNail, on 08 February 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

LOL It is called tactics, being aware of your surroundings. Not just tunnel vision straight ahead. Looking around and watching for movement. I really like ECM. Even if I die to a group of mechs in an ECM bubble. It is called superior tactics. It is not stealth, it is disrupting your sensors.

Keep aware of the world around you, and you are caught less off guard.

Right on, it's all about tactics. Like, if you encounter a 3L in any other light, you need to be aware of it and power down. You will live longer because they'll actually be forced to AIM their MLs.

[focuspark]

Arpacolas, on 08 February 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Right on, it's all about tactics. Like, if you encounter a 3L in any other light, you need to be aware of it and power down. You will live longer because they'll actually be forced to AIM their MLs.

Unless that have BAP and TAG, which I'm seeing more and more of these days.

[Slugger2012]

focuspark, on 08 February 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Slugger is spot on. ECM is broken and needs to be fixed. Feel validated Slugger... a lot of us hate ECM as it is.

Fixing ECM is easy - remove stealthing-ability and everything will be fine...

@CoffiNail:

to avoid detection from sensory is called STEALTHING...DISRUPTING is done when affected in certain range and your systems fail or show things witch aren`t real...

[focuspark]

Slugger2012, on 08 February 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Fixing ECM is easy - remove stealthing-ability and everything will be fine...

@CoffiNail:

to avoid detection from sensory is called STEALTHING...DISRUPTING is done when affected in certain range and your systems fail or show things witch aren`t real...

Actually ECM has a number of problems with its current implementation, stealth just being the most obvious. Other issues include

• Messing with the FFID system (it shouldn't)
  
• Preventing LRM/SSRM from firing (it shouldn't)

Edited by focuspark, 08 February 2013 - 03:47 PM.

[Adridos]

• In Tournament-level gameplay, the use of an ECM suite is to nullify the effects of other electronics, such as missile beacons, active probes, and fire control systems. It can also cut a unit off from a C3 Network.
  
• In Tactical Operations, additional uses for an ECM suite are shown as optional rules, including defeating other ECM and generating ghost targets.

Considering all of us get a C3 for free with no tonnage and crit requirements and ECM nullfies it, it's pretty safe to assume it is actually correct on the game rules for the ECM to disallow targetting (done by C3).

[focuspark]

Adridos, on 08 February 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

• In Tournament-level gameplay, the use of an ECM suite is to nullify the effects of other electronics, such as missile beacons, active probes, and fire control systems. It can also cut a unit off from a C3 Network.
  
• In Tactical Operations, additional uses for an ECM suite are shown as optional rules, including defeating other ECM and generating ghost targets.

Considering all of us get a C3 for free with no tonnage and crit requirements and ECM nullfies it, it's pretty safe to assume it is actually correct on the game rules for the ECM to disallow targetting (done by C3).

None of us get C3, we get position data. C3 allowed mechs to use the closest mech range to calculate difficulty, we don't get that.

Today ECM disrupts the FFID system AND prevents radar from working AND prevents LRM and SSRM from firing. None of which are cannon, so don't go waving cannon around in this debate.

[Slugger2012]

Focuspak is right...none of us got C3..would be too difficult to implent i think...

[General Taskeen]

Don't worry about these 'Current Programmed ECM Apologists' OP Author, since they like broken fish equipment among other bigger fish equipment. In other words, they like it being able to do something it isn't supposed to.

People can argue all they want. Its almost like listening to people that like Fox News, MSN, or CNN and 'think' they are being given reliable information and then argue about the fake 'reliable information.'

Its already a fact that other Mech Warrior games had better programmed equipment that wasn't obnoxiously over-featured. One current title is MW:LL that got pretty much all Mech equipment balanced for a real-time Mech Warrior environment. And C3 is not hard to implement, since they already did it perfectly on CryEngine 2!

Edited by General Taskeen, 08 February 2013 - 04:34 PM.

[Slugger2012]

General Taskeen, on 08 February 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Don't worry about these 'Current Programmed ECM Apologists' OP Author, since they like broken fish equipment among other bigger fish equipment. In other words, they like it being able to do something it isn't supposed to.

That the core of my discussion and post here....equipment able to do things it isn`t supposed to do regarding the original BT-Rules !

[Adridos]

focuspark, on 08 February 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

None of us get C3, we get position data. C3 allowed mechs to use the closest mech range to calculate difficulty, we don't get that.

"A C3 Network is a network consisting of either a C3 Command Unit and up to three C3 Slave Units or six C3i units. Basically a special tight-beam communications network, they are used to share targeting data between 'Mechs and Combat Vehicles. The original C3 Networks were introduced in 3050 by the Draconis Combine.

The C3 Networks that exist today are geared towards the smallest level of tactical command: This means that each 'Mech in a Lance can share targeting data. There have been efforts to expand this targeting coordination to the Company level by using a 'Mech with a pair of C3 Command Units, like the Draconis Combine's Tai-sho."

Targetting data or the "R" key.

General Taskeen, on 08 February 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Don't worry about these 'Current Programmed ECM Apologists' OP Author, since they like broken fish equipment among other bigger fish equipment. In other words, they like it being able to do something it isn't supposed to.

I have never ever pilotted an ECM chassis and I pug exclusively for the time being. Unlike you, though, I've never seen what's so OP about that thing once the netcode was improved and the only disbalancing factor of invincible mechs was nullified.

[Slugger2012]

Adridos, on 08 February 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

"A C3 Network is a network consisting of either a C3 Command Unit and up to three C3 Slave Units or six C3i units. Basically a special tight-beam communications network, they are used to share targeting data between 'Mechs and Combat Vehicles. The original C3 Networks were introduced in 3050 by the Draconis Combine.

The C3 Networks that exist today are geared towards the smallest level of tactical command: This means that each 'Mech in a Lance can share targeting data. There have been efforts to expand this targeting coordination to the Company level by using a 'Mech with a pair of C3 Command Units, like the Draconis Combine's Tai-sho."

Targetting data or the "R" key.



I have never ever pilotted an ECM chassis and I pug exclusively for the time being. Unlike you, though, I've never seen what's so OP about that thing once the netcode was improved and the only disbalancing factor of invincible mechs was nullified.

See...a C3 Slave Unit weights 1 ton and takes up 1 critical slot....that could probably gifted by the devs to us...BUT..a C3 Master, witch is needed to get a C3 Netword running weights 5 Tons and needs 5 crits....so where is the C3 Master ????

[Codejack]

Welcome to my world.

I was PGI's biggest cheerleader until ECM.

[acemarke]

Adridos, on 08 February 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

The C3 Networks that exist today are geared towards the smallest level of tactical command: This means that each 'Mech in a Lance can share targeting data. There have been efforts to expand this targeting coordination to the Company level by using a 'Mech with a pair of C3 Command Units, like the Draconis Combine's Tai-sho."

Targetting data or the "R" key.

The point of the "targeting data" referred to is to allow a unit that is farther away from the target to use the same targeting penalty as a unit that is closer. For example: Mech A is 6 hexes away from an enemy unit. Mech B is 19 hexes away from the same enemy unit. Mech A's weapons would be at short range, while Mech B's weapons would be at long range. If A and B are both connected with C3, then Mech B can calculate its to-hit numbers as if it were only 6 hexes away instead of 19.

Obviously, that mechanic is pretty meaningless in MWO, so it's understandable that ECM be implemented a bit differently. However, there's a big difference between "can't use C3" and "can't target an enemy unit at all". In the previous example, if an enemy mech with ECM was interfering with the C3 link, Mech B would still be able to shoot at the target unit, it would just involve the long-range penalty. So, saying that "ECM interferes with targeting data" means "can't get a lock at all" doesn't really make sense.

I don't have a perfect answer, but based on both the tabletop rules and how things have gone since ECM was added, the "stealth" mechanic definitely seems too powerful.

TL/DR: "ECM is OP!!!!1!"

[Adridos]

Adridos, on 08 February 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Considering all of us get a C3 for free with no tonnage and crit requirements and ECM nullfies it, it's pretty safe to assume it is actually correct on the game rules for the ECM to disallow targetting (done by C3).

focuspark, on 08 February 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

None of us get C3, we get position data. C3 allowed mechs to use the closest mech range to calculate difficulty, we don't get that.

.......

Slugger2012, on 08 February 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

See...a C3 Slave Unit weights 1 ton and takes up 1 critical slot....that could probably gifted by the devs to us...BUT..a C3 Master, witch is needed to get a C3 Netword running weights 5 Tons and needs 5 crits....so where is the C3 Master ????

Also, Acemarke, thanks for teh clarification of rules, but just like the mech will only shoot with bigger range penalties, you can still shoot at the enemy mech.

Edited by Adridos, 08 February 2013 - 05:08 PM.

[Slugger2012]

Okay...to bring it to the point I have searched for the original Rules calling up ECM..here is the quote :

ECM SUITE
The Guardian ECM suite is a broad-spectrum jamming and
electronic countermeasure device designed to reduce the effectiveness
of enemy long-range scanning and surveillance equipment.
The Clans also use an ECM suite with the same capabilities
in a lighter and smaller package. A unit can mount only one
ECM suite.
An ECM suite has an effect radius of 6 hexes that creates a
“bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities
affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of
sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly
to the unit carrying the ECM.

Within its effect radius, an ECM suite has the following
effects on the following systems. The ECM suite does not affect
other scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and Clan
targeting computers.
Active Probes: Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM’s
area of effect. The probing unit would notice that it is being
jammed.
Artemis IV FCS: ECM blocks the effects of the Artemis IV
FCS. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles
through the ECM, but the Missile Hits Table bonus is lost.
Narc Missile Beacon: Missiles equipped to home in on an
attached Narc pod lose the Missile Hits Table bonus for that
system if they are affected by ECM. The Narc launcher itself is
not affected by ECM.
C3 Computer: ECM has the effect of “cutting off” any C3-
equipped unit from its network. If a C3 master unit is isolated
from the network by being inside the ECM radius, the entire portion
of the network “below” it is effectively shut off (all units
subordinate to it on the diagram on p. 135). Only those C3 units
that can draw an LOS to the master unit that does not pass into
or through the ECM radius can access the network. If the master
unit that connects the lances of a company is inside the
ECM effect radius, the link between the lances is lost, though
each lance’s network would function normally (unless the ECM
also interfered with them individually).

like I said - there is NOTHING about sensor avoidance etc....

so back to the roots...let ecm do what it was intendet for...nothing more,nothing less....

[Skadi]

Lol ECM...
*hits raven with 4 PPC's*
There problem solved, stop using Streaks and LRM's in full pug matches where you have no premade ECM.