238 replies to this topic

[Roughneck45]

shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors."

StalaggtIKE, on 12 February 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

Enemies sensors are affected all the way until they get within 200m of ECM, with a brief undisrupted window of 20m. Only to have it gone once within 180m.


So, you admit it goes beyond 180m. Because, as you stated, if it didn't no one would bring it.

There it is, right in the description. Its not affecting enemy radar, it is shielding friendlies from radar. It only effects enemy radar when they move the ECM within 180 of the enemy.

It does not go beyond 180.

you are twisting words to fit your own argument, instead of reading what is clearly stated in the description.

Volthorne, on 12 February 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Hierarchy of game design: Fun > Gameplay > Fluff.

F*** the fluff, it doesn't make for good gameplay OR a fun game, and "fun" is CLEARLY at the top of the hierarchy.

ECM is fun!

I dont even run mechs that can equip it, and I think it makes the game more fun.

Edited by Roughneck45, 12 February 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[Volthorne]

Roughneck45, on 12 February 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

ECM is fun!

I dont even run mechs that can equip it, and I think it makes the game more fun.

So you think it's "fun" to not be able to fire your main weapons in any useful manner? Is it "fun" to need to deny yourself more defensive firepower to use said main weapons despite having very little to start with? Or is it "fun" because "LOLOLOLOLOLOL LRM BOAT NOOBS CAN'T TOUCH ME ANYMORE LOLOLOLOLOLOL"?

[SixstringSamurai]

Volthorne, on 12 February 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

So you think it's "fun" to not be able to fire your main weapons in any useful manner? Is it "fun" to need to deny yourself more defensive firepower to use said main weapons despite having very little to start with? Or is it "fun" because "LOLOLOLOLOLOL LRM BOAT NOOBS CAN'T TOUCH ME ANYMORE LOLOLOLOLOLOL"?

Which ever option involves me being naked....

Edited by SixStringSamurai, 12 February 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Roughneck45]

Volthorne, on 12 February 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

So you think it's "fun" to not be able to fire your main weapons in any useful manner? Is it "fun" to need to deny yourself more defensive firepower to use said main weapons despite having very little to start with? Or is it "fun" because "LOLOLOLOLOLOL LRM BOAT NOOBS CAN'T TOUCH ME ANYMORE LOLOLOLOLOLOL"?

Its fun becasue you have to be aware of your surroundings now, instead of having such high SENSOR DEPENDANCY and waiting for the game to find targets for you.

I run an LRM boat, and have quite a lot of fun with it. Bring my tag, keep my targets, and bring the rain.

Streak dependency is the problem, not ECM.

In fact, i love going against ECM pilots that think like you. Run into the open with your "immunity" and then watch my LRMs rain hell on you.

Edited by Roughneck45, 12 February 2013 - 11:51 AM.

[Codejack]

Roughneck45, on 12 February 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

In fact, i love going against ECM pilots that think like you. Run into the open with your "immunity" and then watch my LRMs rain hell on you.

Yea, you're going to keep a 140kph Raven TAGed. And monkeys might fly out my butt.

Edited by Codejack, 12 February 2013 - 11:53 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Roughneck45, on 12 February 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors."


There it is, right in the description. Its not affecting enemy radar, it is shielding friendlies from radar. It only effects enemy radar when they move the ECM within 180 of the enemy.

It does not go beyond 180.

you are twisting words to fit your own argument, instead of reading what is clearly stated in the description.

I'm stating how ECM works in MWO. It doesn't matter what's posted on sarna.net, if the game is not following it. In MWO sensors are being blocked by ECM until you get within 200m. You then have a 20m window to use your sensors, in which that window is gone once you are within 180m of ECM. Do you not know this? You state you do not use ECM, so maybe not.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 12 February 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[Volthorne]

Roughneck45, on 12 February 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Its fun becasue you have to be aware of your surroundings now, instead of having such high SENSOR DEPENDANCY and waiting for the game to find targets for you.

I run an LRM boat, and have quite a lot of fun with it. Bring my tag, keep my targets, and bring the rain.

Streak dependency is the problem, not ECM.

In fact, i love going against ECM pilots that think like you. Run into the open with your "immunity" and then watch my LRMs rain hell on you.

This would be funny if it wasn't so patently wrong. I can fit all of fours lasers on my C1, so I'm sure as hell not going to give up even one just to make my LRMs work, considering that they shouldn't be prevented from working in the first place (notice how I mentioned nothing about sensors? I don't even ******* MIND losing sensor data feed when ECM gets within 180m. Hell, I can even hold off a pair of Cravens for 8 minutes solo, and damage them pretty badly to boot).

Also considering I have more than two brain cells to rub together, I don't venture near open ground irregardless of LRM boats being present on the enemy team. I prefer to take the back door if I'm not providing fire support. More fun and more effective than zerging.

Edited by Volthorne, 12 February 2013 - 12:05 PM.

[Roughneck45]

Codejack, on 12 February 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Yea, you're going to keep a 140kph Raven TAGed. And monkeys might fly out my butt.

Um, every match that has one that does not hump my leg, yes. Multiple times. 2 LRM20's melt lights like butter.

StalaggtIKE, on 12 February 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

I'm stating how ECM works in MWO. It doesn't matter what's posted on sarna.net, if the game is not following it. In MWO sensors are being blocked by ECM until you get within 200m. You then have a 20m window to use your sensors, in which that window is gone once you are within 180m of ECM. Do you not know this? You state you do not use ECM, so maybe not.

Its not affecting enemy sensors, it is SHIELDING FRIENDLIES, which makes it so enemey sensors cannot see them. The affect is being placed on friendlies.

If the friendly walks out of that bubble, they will immediatley appear on enemy sensors. So Clearly, the enemy sensors are working properly.

Once that ECM mech moves within 180 of the enemy, then their sensors are affected, with the scrambled map and target flickering.

Volthorne, on 12 February 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

This would be funny if it wasn't so patently wrong. I can fit all of fours lasers on my C1, so I'm sure as hell not going to give up even one just to make my LRMs work,

so you refuse to take a 1 ton TAG, which essential doubles the effectivness of your LRMs, your main source of damage and role on the battlefield?

I hope your boat is never on my team.

Edited by Roughneck45, 12 February 2013 - 12:13 PM.

[focuspark]

ECM is just plain broke. There's enough buzz on the forums, and I'm sure enough data from matches by now to prove it. The fact that it's all people can talk about these days is near proof that from a subjective point of view, it's a problem.

It would be in developers' best interests to let us know if they plan to take a detailed look at ECM or not.

As for all of those "ECM stops LRM so it OK by me" cop outs, I say this: if LRM or SSRM are broken, fix them; adding a broken mechanic on top of a broken mechanic as a salve is a foolish response.

Finally, if I can see you so should my radar. If my radar can see you, then I should be able to share that location data with my teammates. This is how things work. ECM today is ******* magic and this isn't World of WarCraft.

Roughneck45, on 12 February 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Its not affecting enemy sensors, it is SHIELDING FRIENDLIES, which makes it so enemey sensors cannot see them. The affect is being placed on friendlies.

Do you know of asinine that sounds? How is it shielding anything? Shields do not exists. ECM is an interference generator, nothing more. The interference it is generating is affecting enemy sensors and that is how it is "shielding friendlies". The description clearly states that it only has a 180m radius of effect, they its interference reaches clear across the field of battle with limitless range.

This is a completely unbalanced, no skill weapon. Simply by having ECM equipped a mech is able to turn the tide of battle. It takes no skill, no understanding, nothing to be effective. That, sir, is complete and udder crap.

[Codejack]

focuspark, on 12 February 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

ECM today is ******* magic and this isn't World of WarCraft.

Well, if they're going that way, I want my Tauran Shaman back.

[Roughneck45]

focuspark, on 12 February 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Do you know of asinine that sounds? How is it shielding anything? Shields do not exists. ECM is an interference generator, nothing more. The interference it is generating is affecting enemy sensors and that is how it is "shielding friendlies". The description clearly states that it only has a 180m radius of effect, they its interference reaches clear across the field of battle with limitless range.

It creates a field of interference that sensors cannot penetrate, which is exactly what it does in game.

If it did what you said it did, then everyone on the enemy team would have their map and targeting systems flickering the entire match, regardless of where they were on the map. Currently that only happens when the ECM is within 180m, as it should.

Its big stompy robots. Interference shields exist.

Edited by Roughneck45, 12 February 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[wrecker666]

I know all you guys played the boardgame years ago and have all the rules stuck in your heads but what all you hardliners seem to forget is that this is now a video game that is trying to draw in new blood and also money to develop past beta to full release.
To do this the developers need to make the game as fair and exciting as possible to play.
Saying that, I now ECM has its critics and issues alike.
It also has its merits.
Without ECM the game would turn into long range battles only, BORING.
LRM 20's & 15's would rain down relentlessly killing all mechs in seconds.
Nobody would be able to get close to have a proper exciting tussle.
People would get fed up and leave the game for something with a bit of fun in it like chess.
ECM nullifies this giving the game a competitive edge.

Like I said it also has issues.
The main one being that even though a mech under ECM cover is in your line of sight and in your sensor range the lock is still lost after a few seconds which is especially annoying when attacking small mechs who carry ECM.
To counter this I would suggest that ECM effects should be nullified if the individual mech trying to target another mech with ECM cover has said mech inside sensor range AND ALSO has said mech in line of sight.
In my opinion this is a fair and simple way to counter ECM while also having a fair counter measure against the boring farts who dont want to get the paintjobs on their mechs dirty in a close up fight by staying back and firing thousands of LRM salvo's. Lets face it, AMS is no match against LRM's.

I get the whole idea about keeping the game as close to the original boardgame rules but in the board game version the LRM's always had a chance of missing. With the self track-able targeting system in the online game a LRM strike is always a hit if it wasnt for buildings, hills and ECM.

Anyone who hates ECM is one of the guys who solely uses LRM's and is only bitching cause their missiles are wasted when the lock is lost under the ECM umbrella.

[StalaggtIKE]

Roughneck45, on 12 February 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Its not affecting enemy sensors, it is SHIELDING FRIENDLIES, which makes it so enemey sensors cannot see them. The affect is being placed on friendlies.
If the friendly walks out of that bubble, they will immediatley appear on enemy sensors. So Clearly, the enemy sensors are working properly.
Once that ECM mech moves within 180 of the enemy, then their sensors are affected, with the scrambled map and target flickering.

The ECM pilot is where the jamming originates from. Regardless of where anyone is on the map, enemy sensors can not target this person, thus the bubble is extended beyond 180m. The fact that it does not operate for allies once they are further from than 180m from point makes little sense. Either it should disrupt to 180m only, or not. But currently it is doing both:

• infinite range for ECM carrier
  
• 180m range for allies

Quote

so you refuse to take a 1 ton TAG, which essential doubles the effectivness of your LRMs, your main source of damage and role on the battlefield?
I hope your boat is never on my team.

No. Not double effectiveness. TAG makes LRM usable. Personally I wouldn't want a LRM boat on my team, unless I'm pug stomping. Only bads were consistently dropping to them prior to the introduction of ECM and even worst players are now.

[Roughneck45]

StalaggtIKE, on 12 February 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

The ECM pilot is where the jamming originates from. Regardless of where anyone is on the map, enemy sensors can not target this person, thus the bubble is extended beyond 180m. The fact that it does not operate for allies once they are further from than 180m from point makes little sense. Either it should disrupt to 180m only, or not. But currently it is doing both:

• infinite range for ECM carrier
  
• 180m range for allies

No. Not double effectiveness. TAG makes LRM usable. Personally I wouldn't want a LRM boat on my team, unless I'm pug stomping. Only bads were consistently dropping to them prior to the introduction of ECM and even worst players are now.

This is just not true.

You can keep telling yourself it is, but it is not. Once again, twisting the facts to suit your personal position. Are you a Politician?

This topic is just exhausting.

I think PGI made ECM just fine, and it has not hindered or ruined any aspect of the game for me. In fact, it has made me a better pilot by increasing my personal awarness, because ECM makes it so i cannot rely on my sensors so heavily.

The only real problem that has come is the dominace of the 3L, but that is not ECM, that is streak reliance. If streaks never existed, 95% of the ECM hate would be gone.

Sorry it is ruining your play time.

Just keep in mind, pilots win games, not ECM.

Edited by Roughneck45, 12 February 2013 - 12:35 PM.

[Volthorne]

Roughneck45, on 12 February 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

so you refuse to take a 1 ton TAG, which essential doubles the effectivness of your LRMs, your main source of damage and role on the battlefield?

I hope your boat is never on my team.

I refuse to take it because it has zero defensive value and I shouldn't need to bring it in the first place to make one class of weapons work. That's like saying "here's a bow and some arrows for it, BUT you also need to carry a laser pointer otherwise the arrows won't hit anything. Do you not see how absurd this sounds?

Roughneck45, on 12 February 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

I think PGI made ECM just fine, and it has not hindered or ruined any aspect of the game for me. In fact, it has made me a better pilot by increasing my personal awarness, because ECM makes it so i cannot rely on my sensors so heavily.

Good for you. My situational awareness didn't need any improvements, nor did my preferred weapon of choice need a laser pointer to make it hit something. Bad game design is bad. End of story.

Edited by Volthorne, 12 February 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

wrecker666, on 12 February 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

I know all you guys played the boardgame years ago and have all the rules stuck in your heads but what all you hardliners seem to forget is that this is now a video game that is trying to draw in new blood and also money to develop past beta to full release.
To do this the developers need to make the game as fair and exciting as possible to play.
Saying that, I now ECM has its critics and issues alike.
It also has its merits.
Without ECM the game would turn into long range battles only, BORING.
LRM 20's & 15's would rain down relentlessly killing all mechs in seconds.
Nobody would be able to get close to have a proper exciting tussle.
People would get fed up and leave the game for something with a bit of fun in it like chess.
ECM nullifies this giving the game a competitive edge.

Like I said it also has issues.
The main one being that even though a mech under ECM cover is in your line of sight and in your sensor range the lock is still lost after a few seconds which is especially annoying when attacking small mechs who carry ECM.
To counter this I would suggest that ECM effects should be nullified if the individual mech trying to target another mech with ECM cover has said mech inside sensor range AND ALSO has said mech in line of sight.
In my opinion this is a fair and simple way to counter ECM while also having a fair counter measure against the boring farts who dont want to get the paintjobs on their mechs dirty in a close up fight by staying back and firing thousands of LRM salvo's. Lets face it, AMS is no match against LRM's.

I get the whole idea about keeping the game as close to the original boardgame rules but in the board game version the LRM's always had a chance of missing. With the self track-able targeting system in the online game a LRM strike is always a hit if it wasnt for buildings, hills and ECM.

Anyone who hates ECM is one of the guys who solely uses LRM's and is only bitching cause their missiles are wasted when the lock is lost under the ECM umbrella.

I agree with your point that the game must consider the opinions of new players, however you're failing to look at it fully from their perspective. At first, a new player is confined to using trial mechs. So far, none of the trail mechs come with ECM or TAG; what I have seen is trial mechs that carry LRMs. Which are made useless against ECM. So the new player is coming into a game with possibly half or more of his dps negated. That sounds pretty annoying to me. Later on you state that AMS is no match to LRM...!!!! YOU ARE CORRECT! The proper solution would have been to boost AMS to make it more effective against LRM. This would be much better balance, as they both require ammo to use. Instead of a "force field" that simply negates the very accessibility of a weapon system. What is going on is new players are facing veteran players that have anti-LRM force fields, confining them to only lasers and/or ballistics.

[Roughneck45]

Volthorne, on 12 February 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Good for you. My situational awareness didn't need any improvements, nor did my preferred weapon of choice need a laser pointer to make it hit something. Bad game design is bad. End of story.

So was having weapons that deal proportional damage to weapons that actually have to be aimed.

Personally, id rather have them be guided with a much higher speed and less turning capability, so that sharp manuevers could avoid them.

But, they went with full lock, fully guided, so ECM implemented in its current form to curb their simplistic low risk high reward style of play.

If LRMs required a higher degree of skill to use from the start, i don't think ECM would have to operate as it does now. Same goes for streaks.

Edited by Roughneck45, 12 February 2013 - 01:03 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Roughneck45, on 12 February 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

This is just not true.

OMG, you are priceless. What in my statement is not true?

StalaggtIKE, on 12 February 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

The ECM pilot is where the jamming originates from. Regardless of where anyone is on the map, enemy sensors can not target this person, thus the bubble is extended beyond 180m. The fact that it does not operate for allies once they are further from than 180m from point makes little sense. Either it should disrupt to 180m only, or not. But currently it is doing both:

• infinite range for ECM carrier
  
• 180m range for allies

A summary:

• ECM disrupt comes from ECM player
  
• He can not be targeted from anywhere on the map until within 200m (which I stated in the earlier post)
  
• It stops working when allies are not within his 180m bubble
  
• So, it is jamming radar at different ranges for both the ECM carrier and his allies

Again, what was falsely stated? Did you think a falsified the numbers? Here's a link to the official ECM page: GUARDIAN ECM SUITE. Or, was it that you just couldn't come up with a valid argument?

Quote

No. Not double effectiveness. TAG makes LRM usable. Personally I wouldn't want a LRM boat on my team, unless I'm pug stomping. Only bads were consistently dropping to them prior to the introduction of ECM and even worst players are now.

Or are you referring to the LRM bit? That part was opinion. I hope you're mature enough to realize that.

Roughneck45, on 12 February 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

Personally, id rather have them be guided with a much higher speed and less turning capability, so that sharp manuevers could avoid them.
But, they went with full lock, fully guided, so ECM was put in to curb their simplistic low risk high reward style of play.

This makes a lot of sense. I would prefer this as well. However, I believe the problem is that slower heavier mechs, would be unable to get away.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 12 February 2013 - 01:02 PM.

[focuspark]

Roughneck45, on 12 February 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

So was having weapons that deal proportinal damage to weapons that actually have to be aimed.

Personally, id rather have them be guided with a much higher speed and less turning capability, so that sharp manuevers could avoid them.

But, they went with full lock, fully guided, so ECM was put in to curb their simplistic low risk high reward style of play.

Again with the argument that because LRM / SSRM are broken that ECM should be broken too. Twisted logic at best. I agree LRM and SSRM need to be fixed and I've posted several suggestions for fixing them, but ECM is broken too and needs to be fixed.

Roughneck45, on 12 February 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

It creates a field of interference that sensors cannot penetrate, which is exactly what it does in game.

If it did what you said it did, then everyone on the enemy team would have their map and targeting systems flickering the entire match, regardless of where they were on the map. Currently that only happens when the ECM is within 180m, as it should.

Its big stompy robots. Interference shields exist.

ECM systems create the equivalent of a very bright strobe light in high band EM, which blinds sensors. The strobe has a pattern to it, which allied sensors can be tuned to avoid being blinded. The strobe patter varies to prevent enemy sensors from adapting. Great, we all know how ECM works now.

First, the ECM mech should be detectable from across the map given the amount of EM it'd have to be putting off to blind sensors. Second, since I can see the mech with my eyes that means short wave EM isn't affected, therefore my sensors should be able to detect the target. The military has weapons today which can use visible light to locate targets... one doesn't need to use radar to get the benefits - and given the behavior of the in game radar, I'd guess that it does use visible light.

OK, so it's a game and all kinds of illogical things can exist (like giant stompy robots) but using that argument falls completely flat because ECM isn't fun and games are supposed to be fun.

See my post above on how I feel ECM should work. It should protect mechs within its bubble from indirect fire, and it should prevent enemy mechs within its bubble from sharing targeting data. Other than that, it should have no affect on game play otherwise it's simply too powerful.

[Roughneck45]

StalaggtIKE, on 12 February 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

OMG, you are priceless. What in my statement is not true?

A summary:

• ECM disrupt comes from ECM player
  
• He can not be targeted from anywhere on the map until within 200m (which I stated in the earlier post)
  
• It stops working when allies are not within his 180m bubble
  
• So, it is jamming radar at different ranges for both the ECM carrier and his allies

Again, what was falsely stated? Did you think a falsified the numbers? Here's a link to the official ECM page: GUARDIAN ECM SUITE. Or, was it that you just couldn't come up with a valid argument?

You keep thinking that the ECM is reaching out and affecting your sensors. It is simply cloaking an area.

The sensors are not affected, they just don't pick up the area. If they were affected, your map would be flickering the whole game.

Real world ECM may operate in a different matter, but were not talking about that.

Edited by Roughneck45, 12 February 2013 - 01:13 PM.