238 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

General Taskeen, on 08 February 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Don't worry about these 'Current Programmed ECM Apologists' OP Author, since they like broken fish equipment among other bigger fish equipment. In other words, they like it being able to do something it isn't supposed to.

People can argue all they want. Its almost like listening to people that like Fox News, MSN, or CNN and 'think' they are being given reliable information and then argue about the fake 'reliable information.'

Its already a fact that other Mech Warrior games had better programmed equipment that wasn't obnoxiously over-featured. One current title is MW:LL that got pretty much all Mech equipment balanced for a real-time Mech Warrior environment. And C3 is not hard to implement, since they already did it perfectly on CryEngine 2!

yeah but that was mod development team. those mod teams can make tons of maps, involve the community, balance the game well, etc. These things don't seem possible for all but some brilliant companies like Bethesda, most companies nowadays are way out of touch with bringing the community in for stuff like custom maps, etc. Strange phenomena really.
.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Mibman, on 09 February 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

I agree with you. But... Eve Online has a ECM system. You target ships and JAM their targeting systems for about 20 seconds. When it was implemented, the community was being outraged becaus ECM was OP. Now they are used to it and it´s fine.

I was being facetious there Mibman.

I wanted to hear tales of Codejacks head explode when the ran across a Manticore and Falcons.
If people think ECM is bad and horrible here...

You know what, playing Eve should be a pre-req to playing this game. A game that forces you to either join a group of people or just flat out quit, where getting blown up has more consequences than just some silly KDR value.

[buttmonkey]

i agree with the poster, ecm needs to be looked at

[sycocys]

Take a break mate, pm me your email and I will shoot you a line when ecm gets altered and counters get implemented.

[Gremlich Johns]

Codejack, on 08 February 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Welcome to my world.

I was PGI's biggest cheerleader until ECM.

Imagine my disappointment, I've actually used ECM IRL.

[Daggett]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 09 February 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

You know what, playing Eve should be a pre-req to playing this game. A game that forces you to either join a group of people or just flat out quit, where getting blown up has more consequences than just some silly KDR value.

In my opinion, telling everyone to team up is no solution.

This game like most F2P games out there need PUGs to survive. They need to serve them as well as the team players because they also finance the game to a significant amount.

And there are always good reasons to pug. The most obvious is the 20 minute window until you have an real-life appointment or simply need to go to bed. Or you are like me and like to do a little break after a couple of games.
Playing with a group often requires some sort of commitment. They usually want you to stick with them for more than just one or two games. Which is good because most of the time you want to play more games too.

But as much as i like playing together way more than playing alone, there are always situations where you simply want to play a quick game without the need to organize your friends and visit TS.

And in an overall fair/balanced environment this is absolutely no problem. Each player in a PUG game simply needs to use his common sense and magically a team can automatically organize itself without even talking a word.

Of cause many players fail to use that common sense and will hurt their PUG. But the enemy has those guys too, and in the end the team with more common sense (accompanied by skill of cause) probably wins. And this is good, because they were the better team.

And here ECM kicks in. By denying the PUG it's map-awareness it creates a great disadvantage for them. This would probably be ok if the ECM user would have to sacrifice something valuable to do it. But in its current design, ECM is available on the most potent variant of their mech-type (e.g. Raven 3L or Spider 5D instead of the Raven 4X an Spider 5K) and does not limit the firepower, speed or armor of those mechs as a trade of.

While skilled premades can handle this (even if they only need to equip ECM themselves), PUGs cannot. Especially not the poor group where the matchmaker forgot to give them ECM as well.

So forcing everyone to team up is not necessary (as long as the game is fair) and is very harmful for any F2P game because it would lock out a lot of paying players.

Edited by Daggett, 09 February 2013 - 08:15 AM.

[Codejack]

Daggett, on 08 February 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

To bring a more tactile example:
Imagine a box fight where your opponent has brass knuckles and you have to use normal boxing gloves.
Of cause you can outskill and outsmart your opponent and win the fight. And it will feel great for you.
But the fight was still unfair and other boxers with less godlike skill will of cause be disadvantaged and have all right to be upset.

Of course, we could bring brass knuckles of our own, but that changes the situation from a boxing match to a fight to the death; it's a different game, and quite simply, less fun.

At least, as a participant. Maybe it's more fun as a spectator.... and that might explain a lot.

[Codejack]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 09 February 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

You know what, playing Eve should be a pre-req to playing this game. A game that forces you to either join a group of people or just flat out quit, where getting blown up has more consequences than just some silly KDR value.

That's exactly why I didn't stick with Eve; I don't WANT to be forced to play with total strangers.

CCP managed to pull it off by making what even I have to admit was a stunning game, but it didn't interest me and it didn't appeal to a lot of other people, and I submit to you that this game has a somewhat different audience.

[p4g3m4s7r]

Eddrick, on 08 February 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

Speaking of MW4

MechWarrior 4 version is ECM is very easy on people.

Mechwarrior 4 ECM was great in maps that allowed it to be useful. I ran a shadow cat with an LBX20 and ECM. I'd get right up behind people, turn off my radar and *POW* right in the back. Too many MW4 maps were super open though. Also, everyone started using AC/2 boat Masakaris and Daishis, which was ********.

Eddrick, on 08 February 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

Artillery should bring that to a stop, too. People will not like taking splash damage at the cost of staying in the ECM bubble

Edit: Stealth and ECM are two differant things. But, they do work well together.

I really hope this isn't the counter they implement (I think the timeline would prevent it anyway). You can't build a system by having everything be a hard-counter to everything else. Not even SC2 does that, and that game is still relatively full of hard-counters.

And collision should really only come back if it's for mechs that run into each other with highly different speeds. Thus, this still shouldn't effect the ECM pack because they should all be moving the same speed. If they do make it super touchy (like in open beta) it would be really stupid.

Edited by p4g3m4s7r, 09 February 2013 - 03:45 PM.

[Torquemada]

Codejack, on 08 February 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

Easy; watch your target teleport 2 inches across your screen in between the time you hit the button and the time the game actually decides to fire.

I think you've forgotten to open your missile bays. If you have them closed when you fire, there is a delay as they open, then fire. If they just launched you'd blow your own doors off....

[Eddrick]

p4g3m4s7r, on 09 February 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

I really hope this isn't the counter they implement (I think the timeline would prevent it anyway). You can't build a system by having everything be a hard-counter to everything else. Not even SC2 does that, and that game is still relatively full of hard-counters.

And collision should really only come back if it's for mechs that run into each other with highly different speeds. Thus, this still shouldn't effect the ECM pack because they should all be moving the same speed. If they do make it super touchy (like in open beta) it would be really stupid.

The absolute counter to Guardian ECM Suite is the Bloodhound Active probe. It's an upgrade to the Beagle Active Probe that is uneffected by Guardian ECM Suit. It's produced in 3058.

At that point, anyone with the Bloodhound Active Probe is not effected by ECM till about 3072. Which, is the Angle ECM Suite. It's an upgrade to the Guardian ECM Suite. It blocks Bloodhounb Active Probe like the Guardian ECM Suite blocks the Beagle Active Probe.

It's one extreme counter, then another. The Devs are making things effect the Guardian ECM Suite in the meantime.

Edited by Eddrick, 09 February 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[Codejack]

Torquemada, on 09 February 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

I think you've forgotten to open your missile bays. If you have them closed when you fire, there is a delay as they open, then fire. If they just launched you'd blow your own doors off....

My missile bay doors being closed makes enemies teleport?! Wow.

Eddrick, on 09 February 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

The absolute counter to Guardian ECM Suite is the Bloodhound Active probe. It's an upgrade to the Beagle Active Probe that is uneffected by Guardian ECM Suit. It's produced in 3058.

At that point, anyone with the Bloodhound Active Probe is not effected by ECM till about 3072. Which, is the Angle ECM Suite. It's an upgrade to the Guardian ECM Suite. It blocks Bloodhounb Active Probe like the Guardian ECM Suite blocks the Beagle Active Probe.

It's one extreme counter, then another. The Devs are making things effect the Guardian ECM Suite in the meantime.

But this is not Guardian; this is Guardian + Angel + some other stuff.

[Eddrick]

Codejack, on 09 February 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

But this is not Guardian; this is Guardian + Angel + some other stuff.

It's thier design.

The description I gave is just the way that balance of Information Warfare swings in the tabletop game.

[Codejack]

Eddrick, on 09 February 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

It's thier design.

The description I gave is just the way that balance of Information Warfare swings in the tabletop game.

Sure, but it was balanced because the relative abilities of each item were in proportion; ECM is just WAY out of proportion in this game.

[plodder]

Too many ECM's in every match, non cannon, non realistic, over powered, even though there are tactics to negate it. I miss the evil Jenners, The other non-ECM'd mechs in mass. There should be no more than 2 per 8 man match, though that is too much even, 2 per 12 man would be more realistic, and this would create "more" tactics, and protecting the ECM Mechs would be part of that. Just one fella's opinion..

[Ipecac]

Daggett made a great point which is that ECM can be totally debilitating if you're not playing with a highly organized group. We look to the minimap to create cohesion on the fly.

If I've got my 3 friends with me, we'll probably keep it together a bit and hang back as a lance, but if I'm on my own, it's chaos..

I think you should be able to target a mech you can put your reticule on.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Codejack, on 09 February 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

That's exactly why I didn't stick with Eve; I don't WANT to be forced to play with total strangers.

And this is exactly your problem.

I have never once met a person that I play with, but they are far from total strangers. I consider it a privilege to play with them and most of them are really good and interesting people, when we aren't "shoting robits in the butt" we are talking about work, life, and everything else.
For me, fully half of the fun of this game comes from the community that you get involved with.

[Codejack]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 10 February 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

I have never once met a person that I play with, but they are far from total strangers. I consider it a privilege to play with them and most of them are really good and interesting people, when we aren't "shoting robits in the butt" we are talking about work, life, and everything else.
For me, fully half of the fun of this game comes from the community that you get involved with.

Congratulations. I'm glad the game caters to your personality. WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ME?

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 10 February 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

And this is exactly your problem.

Um, no. It's PGI's problem because I'm pretty sure that more gamers are like me than like you.

[Noth]

Codejack, on 10 February 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Congratulations. I'm glad the game caters to your personality. WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ME?





Um, no. It's PGI's problem because I'm pretty sure that more gamers are like me than like you.

Actually multiplayer gaming and just dropping in with strangers has proven to be ridiculously successful. Therefor I believe the majority of gamers are in fact, not like you.

[SixstringSamurai]

Codejack, on 08 February 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

Oh, yea, just hit a Raven with PP- oh, crap, that pesky lagshield again.

Not to mention that it would be incredibly difficult even without the lagshield; EMP is neat, but it is not a fix.

Complains about lag shield. Pilots K2 armed with 2xAC20s and 2xMedium Lasers.