9226 replies to this topic

[CandidAstrius]

Samaritan, on 05 July 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

Hon. Mechwarriors;

First, allow me to set a bit of mood music.



1. Part of the successful formula for kids shows is catering to the parent who will be purchasing the product, whether in the box office, or a cable subscription in the living room, the children's show will enjoy higher ratings if the child and the parent are entertained.

2. Like it or not, In the brick and mortar world news papers and magazines are written with an eighth grade reading proficiency in mind. The confident expectation that their subscribers will not be in possession of critical thinking skills is assumed. Given that most individuals don't receive any formal training in logic and so called higher mathematics such as "College Algebra" until they graduate high school, this is a safe assumption. Most people are deliberately steered away from the understanding of systems, and what little training they receive is usually confined to a profession such as computing, engineering, medicine, etc... State sponsored baby sitting known as public education produces uneducated children in adult bodies.

3. There are many many infuriated PHDs who have written on the travesty that is the deliberate abuse of the public with the deceptive marketing programs embedded in TV and movie programming. You can begin you own search here:

http://reghartt.ca/cineforum/?p=3259

These tools are willfull abuses and extend to the political realm as well as can be seen in this report:

http://www.pennypres...is_Speeches.pdf

4. The vast majority of offerings produced for Cable TV and the box office comprise nothing more than an intellectual wasteland.
That's not my opinion, that is established industry cannon as can be seen here:

http://www.terramedi...t_wasteland.htm

From time to time talented and successful writers, directors, producers and such have the privilege of producing something they really really want to do. Firefly and the movie Serenity by Joss Whedon is a good example of this. Lauren Faust has achieved this degree of success and artistic freedom as well. These types of well written, intelligent, uplifting shows get consistently cancelled. These shows are distinguished as art and labor's of loving excellence, yet they do not receive the patronage they deserve by the 5 or so corporations that own most of this market.

5. Michael Ross a famous and successful screen writer/producer once said in a speech "We learn best by that which entertains us" The man wrote All in the Family, The Jeffersons, Three's Company and much more... These are shows that he used as vehicles to mold society. Gene Roddenberry did the same thing with Star Trek. George Lucas began his career with THX 1138 and went on to produce the Star Wars series. Orson Wells gave us the psyop radio broadcast "War of the Worlds. Stanley Kubric brought us a 2001 A Space Odyssey. I mention these people and their works to make a critical point. The 21st century Bard is a powerful mechanism for influencing people. Hitler once quipped that he did not care what his detractor's thought because he controlled what their children were taught.

6. If the most powerful men in the world considered the thinking of children important. If the major media companies of the world have been concentrated and monopolized for the express purpose of wielding this influence in a handfull of companies. If the bulk of state sponsored education is directed towards producing the dependent child in an adults body, then what makes you think that children's programing would be excluded from their social engineering? In the MLP FIM show written by Lauren Faust we have, as Jade Kitsune and others have pointed out a well written, self conscious attempt to educate and better children produced in a manner that has been well received by adults far outside the targeted marketing niche. The quality of writing, and the respect for the audience in depicting the MLP FIM show as they have is outside the norm for a lot of prime time programming, let alone a kids show. Joss Whedon did the same thing for the Firefly series and asked significant questions of a society on the cusp of a trans-human singularity.... "How much of our humanity will we give up for a world without sin?" The Firefly series was written for adults, but kidds grok the thing quit well.

Is My Little Pony Friendship is Magic a childrens cartoon? Yes. Has it transcended that demographic through excellant writting? Yes. If you are an Oligarch in the business of molding society into one of dependance for your own benefit, might you and one of your altruistic Bards come to blows over the influence produced by the show? Yes. For me, as a believer in Jesus Christ, I do not find the concept of the Devil's World exercising Tavistokian influence over the citizens of the world in this deceptive manner to be a hard sell. As His Majesty the Devil is intent on achieving his aims with as much good as is consistent with wining the Angelic Conflict, there are bound to be times when his stated policies and his actual intents clash in the thinking of his altruistic and imperfectly good and moral servants. Condemned Angels of Light and their moral and immoral degenerate human agents have more than they can handle in administering the affairs of this world. The ends justify the means in the increasingly despairing thoughts of these crusaders. The MLP FIM show in my opinion is a moral, pro personal responsibility, pro marriage, pro family, pro soveriegn nation oriented good story for kids of all ages set in a Tavistokian Jedi Mind Trick medium. The argument between the writers and the owners of the show over the effects the show is having on it's audience seem to be the natural outcome of material existentialists possessing differing views in the Higelian Dialectic. Both sides want better people, but "better" is enlightened to one and dependent to the other.

Thank you for your time in considering this essay on the subject of MLP FIM genre niche and purpose. Ah'm not writing a term paper, thesis, or dissertation, so if y'all want the footnotes and a more rigorous defense of my notions PM me and I shall endeavor to serve ye well. Writing this was fun for me and I hope reading it was fun for you. If I have offended any sensibilities feel free to PM me as well, and I will listen and learn.

Ah'm sure Fluttershy will happily do the honors if I have failed to dissuade you from your ire.



Respectfully

Samaritan

Such a serious topic for this light hearted thread...however...sadly...i really couldn't agree more.

[William Petersen]

Proxus571, on 05 July 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

Surely you can't be serious?

Sir. I think you mean:

[Aresye]

Some of you guys have proven to me just by your posts that you're the kind of bronies I don't get...at all.

- The kind that get butthurt over canon vs fanon disputes.
- The kind that establish rules for shipping, fanfics, and OCs.
- The kind that looks WAY too deep into a cartoon meant for entertainment.
- The kind that gets angry when the show does something against fanon, such as Derpy, or Vinyl Scratch's eyes.

As said before, I'm all about perception, but while you're here arguing over the perception of shipping vs clop, OC vs main cast, etc. I'm looking at the perception of a bunch of over-obsessed bronies that are overanalyzing a cartoon meant for entertainment.

[wanderer]

Pacoua, on 05 July 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

I think the rocket mounted sheep was more epic in nature than any pony could be.

Ahem.

[SNobleJr]

Jace Nevada, on 05 July 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

It's not kept out of the show just because the show has to be family friendly, it's kept out of the show because there's literally no reason to add it. Showing the entire pony reproduction process in graphic detail would have added absolutely no value to the story, except for letting a few creeps get their rocks off. And this is what most sexually explicit fanfiction is about, despite the fact that the authors and fans will vehemently argue to the contrary. I've explored far enough into the depths of other internet fandoms in the past to know that this is exactly what goes on.

I'd like to bring up Fallout: Equestria as a counterexample, which you so offhandedly derided as a "a thinly-veiled 608K word clopfic". I could probably count the number of sexual scenes or suggestive references in it on one hand, maybe two; and no, these are not hardcore sex scenes without exception, either. Just a couple of points:
-The only truly explicit scene is a fan-written (though accepted as FoE canon) "bonus chapter", which is usually kept separate from the original chapters and clearly labeled as explicit.
-The second most prominent scene involving sex between characters is not explicit, and leads directly into another scene which has a major concentration of character development.
-The rest of the sexually suggestive references are generally there for humor value, and also aren't explicit.

Jace Nevada, on 05 July 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Yeah you're right, it's not really the same thing. And honestly, G-rated shipping between OCs (see: Stormy Nights) doesn't bother me at all. When it's done in an M-rated context or with canon characters, that's what bugs me. It's like Sesambrot was saying, it's just lazy and stupid.

What, just between OCs? Not even between background ponies, whose personalities are mostly fan-created anyway? Not even with more important characters if they're kept in-character?

Once again, I'd like to point out It's Always Sunny in Fillydelphia, which is quite possibly the best MLP shipfic I've read. It keeps everyone in-character and/or extrapolates reasonably from their canon personalities, it's tame, and it avoids the groan-worthy "love at first sight" cliché, taking it slow instead. Personally, I'd say if any fic is capable of warming someone up to shipping, it's this one.

Jace Nevada, on 05 July 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

I've read a number of good fanfics that stay true to the spirit of the show and don't involve main characters cutting each other into pieces and/or having explicitly-described sex with each other. Unfortunately, these good fanfics are the exception rather than the rule. Not only are most clopfics and shipfics disgusting and borderline pedophilia, they're also horribly written because the author is too concerned with putting their twisted fantasies down on paper to worry about whether or not it makes any sense within the context of whatever story they're writing.

News flash: good fiction in general is the exception, not the rule. Fan fiction is merely easier to publish. Like I said, Sturgeon's Law.

And "borderline pedophilia"? Seriously? There's some of that out there, yeah, but most? Now you're just being sensationalistic. Honestly, the only crime of most shipfics is being amateurish cliché piles, not rampant deviancy...

Edited by SNobleJr, 05 July 2012 - 03:01 PM.

[Sikreci]

Aresye, on 05 July 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

Some of you guys have proven to me just by your posts that you're the kind of bronies I don't get...at all.

Frankly, I don't expect my arguments to go anywhere here, I just want to go on the record as fighting the good fight so that any passersby can see that there are people in the community that don't stand for the kind of creepy junk that's become stereotypical for fans of MLP (and not an entirely unwarranted stereotype).

SNobleJr, on 05 July 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

I'd like to bring up Fallout: Equestria as a counterexample, which you so offhandedly derided as a "a thinly-veiled 608K word clopfic". I could probably count the number of sexual scenes or suggestive references in it on one hand, maybe two; and no, these are not hardcore sex scenes without exception, either. Just a couple of points:

There's also the pervasive violence and gore too. I've just skimmed it because frankly I have more important and pleasant things to spend my time on than reading 608,000 word clopfics (I still stand by my opinion that that's what it is). You don't have to take it personally, all kinds of people like all kinds of crazy of things, but I'm just calling it like I see it.

Quote

And "borderline pedophilia"? Seriously?

Unless you're living in a world where explicit images of <18 year olds isn't considered child p**********, calling it borderline pedophilia isn't far off the mark. Lauren Faust, whose word is canon, specifically said she imagined the main six as 12-17 year olds. I only say borderline because it's a choice between pedophilia and zoophilia, and both are subjects that the general public has no interest in hearing about.

Edited by Jace Nevada, 05 July 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[Proxus571]

William Petersen, on 05 July 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

Sir. I think you mean:
<snip>

I can't see Sweetie Bot the same way anymore after watching Friendship is Witchcraft:


Also, this is for anyone else who appreciates the fan songs in FiW:
http://www.youtube.c...d1WceA7D40&NR=1

Edited by Proxus571, 05 July 2012 - 03:30 PM.

[SNobleJr]

Jace Nevada, on 05 July 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

There's also the pervasive violence and gore too. I've just skimmed it because frankly I have more important and pleasant things to spend my time on than reading 608,000 word clopfics (I still stand by my opinion that that's what it is). You don't have to take it personally, all kinds of people like all kinds of crazy of things, but I'm just calling it like I see it.

On the subject of the violence: there is a major difference between FoE and the gorefics like Cupcakes. Namely that Cupcakes and its ilk are cheap, immature shockfics that only aim to scandalize, while FoE uses the violence and atrocities as a major thematic element that the protagonists struggle tooth and nail hoof against in order to reinforce the message of the show itself. I'm dead serious, the whole core message of the fic is that the violent post-apocalyptic wasteland is not the way Equestria should be, and the goal of Pip & company is to undo as much of the damage done as possible. With what they have to fight against, the moments when friendship triumphs are all the greater.

As for taking it personally: I just find it very unfair and close-minded that you so casually dismiss it with all but baseless accusations, completely disregarding that it's an intricately plotted and often moving piece of fiction. And I think it's incredibly unjust to the author who poured immense amounts of thought and work into it.

Jace Nevada, on 05 July 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

Unless you're living in a world where explicit images of <18 year olds isn't considered child p**********, calling it borderline pedophilia isn't far off the mark. Lauren Faust, whose word is canon, specifically said she imagined the main six as 12-17 year olds. I only say borderline because it's a choice between pedophilia and zoophilia, and both are subjects that the general public has no interest in hearing about.

She also said that they probably don't age exactly like humans, and that they have adult independence. And this is something we see in the show as well: Applejack and Rarity are business owners, Rainbow Dash, Fluttershy and Pinkie Pie all hold jobs responsibly (well, at least responsibly enough to not get fired; their competence certainly helps), and Twilight Sparkle acts essentially like a college or university student working on her thesis (and, let's not forgets forget [Edit: Derp, I just went full Skwisgaar...], also holds a job at the same time). If these are not signs of maturity, I don't know what is.

As for zoophilia: zoophilia is wrong because it involves a power imbalance, namely non-sapient animals being unable to give informed consent. However, Equestrian ponies are obviously self-aware and at least as intelligent as humans, thus they would more accurately fall under xenophilia. Now, everyone is, of course, free to decide whether that interests them or not, but it certainly wouldn't be unethical behaviour.

Edited by SNobleJr, 05 July 2012 - 04:31 PM.

[Applejack]

Oh Celestia, now we're having disagreements within the ponythread, and people calling FO:E a clopfic. That's an insult, because the purpose of a clopfic is entirely and completely sexual. It's hypocritical for me to say that, because I haven't read it (Fallout.. has a reputation as a good game but not a good novel), but I know from the sheer hours, days, weeks, months, almost a full year now of me digging around the ponydom, FO:E is by far the least popular topic of those questionable and explicit artists out there. And on the Questionable and Explicit art, well... it's art! If it exists, somepony is going to make it, and somepony is going to like it.

I have honestly tried to understand those bronies who partake in clopfics and rule34 ponies. And, I do understand. They can go on merrily doing it, because it makes sense to me. It's not what I'd go for or cheer for, but I'm not going to topple it over like it's evil, because it isn't. On top of that, these parts of the brony community are not nearly as pervasive and easily allow observers of pony to decide whether or not they want to open that door. They respect ponies who don't respect what they like, and that goes a long way for me. It should go a long way for you, too.

I started out as feeling insulted by those things and felt like burning them down whenever I saw them. Not only did I feel like they gave a horrible impression of bronies, but I also felt like they were going directly against character portrayals in the show. I didn't make it an issue even then because even they knew that.

Edited by Applejack, 05 July 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[Sikreci]

At day's end it's really just the same thing that the furry fandom has been pumping out for years. There's plenty of r34/gore images/fics of Sonic the Hedgehog, Pokemon, any and all Disney movies, and just about any other form of media containing animal or anime characters out there too. MLP just happens to be the latest one.

It's too bad we can't just split this into a G-rated pony thread and merge everything else into a general purpose "cartoon character shipping/sexuality" thread. Since we can't, I'd rather keep everything G-rated and mostly canon for the sake of the community's image, but it looks like I'm the only one that thinks this is an issue. I suppose folks like me that just enjoy the show on its own without adding a bunch of sex and violence are a minority in the fan community after all.

[CandidAstrius]

Jace Nevada, on 05 July 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

At day's end it's really just the same thing that the furry fandom has been pumping out for years. There's plenty of r34/gore images/fics of Sonic the Hedgehog, Pokemon, any and all Disney movies, and just about any other form of media containing animal or anime characters out there too. MLP just happens to be the latest one.

It's too bad we can't just split this into a G-rated pony thread and merge everything else into a general purpose &quot;cartoon character shipping/sexuality&quot; thread. Since we can't, I'd rather keep everything G-rated and mostly canon for the sake of the community's image, but it looks like I'm the only one that thinks this is an issue. I suppose folks like me that just enjoy the show on its own without adding a bunch of sex and violence are a minority in the fan community after all.

I've always been a "to each there own" kinda person theres nothing wrong with my scroll wheel, so I don't mind what other people post, if I'm offended, I skip it, however, I do enjoy picking through the trash to find the gems that are to be found if one looks closely

[SNobleJr]

Jace Nevada, on 05 July 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

It's too bad we can't just split this into a G-rated pony thread and merge everything else into a general purpose "cartoon character shipping/sexuality" thread. Since we can't, I'd rather keep everything G-rated and mostly canon for the sake of the community's image, but it looks like I'm the only one that thinks this is an issue. I suppose folks like me that just enjoy the show on its own without adding a bunch of sex and violence are a minority in the fan community after all.

[Note: Emphasis mine.]

I've been trying to be civil so far (minus the odd bit of snark here and there), but you know what? Kindly go and take this holier-than-thou attitude with you. Let me tell you, despite your insinuation to the contrary, I do, in fact, enjoy both the show and Fallout: Equestria on their own merits, and don't feel compelled to force "a bunch of sex and violence" into it because I can't enjoy it otherwise - I just happen to acknowledge that they can be handled in a mature and effective manner, as FoE does. And plenty of other fans feel the same way.

Let me come right out: I'm personally mostly indifferent towards MLP R34 and violence. I don't partake in them, except when they're integral, maturely and intelligently handled parts of a larger narrative (again, FoE comes to mind), and neither do I condemn them. But I'll be damned if I don't stick up for the right of others to enjoy them as they see fit, because they don't harm anyone by doing so, and frankly, a majority of the rhetoric that the anti-clop/-gore brigade spouts at them is either half-truths, grossly exaggerated, or just plain untrue slander.

Edited by SNobleJr, 05 July 2012 - 05:48 PM.

[Sikreci]

SNobleJr, on 05 July 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

I've been trying to be civil so far (minus the odd bit of snark here and there), but you know what? Kindly go and take this holier-than-thou attitude with you.

I'm not trying to say I'm better than everyone else. People are going to enjoy the weird creepy fanfiction and art and that's how it is even if I don't like it. I just don't think discussion about the "dark side" of the fandom belongs in public forums like this where people are -- for better or worse -- going to interpret it as representative of the entire community. But the last few pages have made it clear to me that I'm not going to change anyone's mind on the subject and that this sort of thing is, in fact, representative of the community.

So whatever, I'm done here. On the off chance there's anyone reading this post that feels the way I do, I encourage you to check out the community at http://mlponies.com/forums/ . It's a news site, awesome forum community, and image aggregator that's kept entirely clean of the sort of objectionable material I've been arguing against.

[William Petersen]

Jace Nevada, on 05 July 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

I'm not trying to say I'm better than everyone else. People are going to enjoy the weird creepy fanfiction and art and that's how it is even if I don't like it. I just don't think discussion about the "dark side" of the fandom belongs in public forums like this where people are -- for better or worse -- going to interpret it as representative of the entire community. But the last few pages have made it clear to me that I'm not going to change anyone's mind on the subject and that this sort of thing is, in fact, representative of the community.

So whatever, I'm done here. On the off chance there's anyone reading this post that feels the way I do, I encourage you to check out the community at http://mlponies.com/forums/ . It's a news site, awesome forum community, and image aggregator that's kept entirely clean of the sort of objectionable material I've been arguing against.

Pardon my ignorance-laden self, but what qualifies your or anyone else (except maybe the forum moderators - I've a good idea what their qualifications are <.<) to label something as "weird" and "creepy" and the "'dark side' of the fandom"?

[Karuik]

*looks up*

*sighs*

[Steve Varayis]

Okay, I just have to ask this.

There is an ENTIRE MLP FORUM, and yet you are here.

What gives?

[Sporkosophy]

[Samaritan]

Karuik, on 05 July 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

*looks up*

*sighs*

I blame you Karuik

You started it

Don't gimme that innocent "who me?" look, I saw what you did there

I have really enjoyed this thread so please enjoy some Mandopony for your part in this



Pinkie 3.14ly

Samaritan

Edited by Samaritan, 05 July 2012 - 06:57 PM.

[William Petersen]

Sporkosophy, on 05 July 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

WHY DID GUMMY EAT PINKIE?!?!? WHY WHY WHY WHY?!??! ::weeps bitter tears of bitterness::

[Mechwarrior Of Rock]

yngvef, on 05 July 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

Luna has spoken.

Luke Garrad, on 03 July 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

Rainbow dash is next to you, What Do.... XD

Give her a hug.
and ask her out ;-)