83 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Astrolux, on 09 February 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

To call for any sort of buff for the Catapult is absurd. Cockpit is vulnerable when standing still and not so much while moving. The size of it is not the reason it is getting hit so much but the placement of it. Aim for the pointed tip of the Catapult and you might get a head shot and might not. Stop standing still in your PPC sniper and the enemy will have a hell of a time trying to cockpit you.

Calling for a buff because something has a weakness is not the proper way to balance a game. There are tons of people in this thread disagreeing with you but you seem to write off their opinion as quickly as they wrote off yours. But what can you expect from someone who thinks Catapults need a buff.

That cat already has a glaring weakness people just don't take advantage of- those giant satellite dishes for arms where most people keep most/all of their weapons that can be picked off at 1000 meters. (AC20 cats don't obviously.. but then.. they have the same glaring weakness as SRM cats.. extremely limited range.)

(Also, there are plenty of people agreeing with me too, some of them not necessarily from an objective point of view so that doesn't help, but plenty of others agree.) You're not still mad that I told you to p*ss off in TS are you? (Don't answer that- it was rhetorical.)

Craftyman, on 09 February 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Use your absurd torso twist to avoid being cockpitted. The cockpit is literally the cat's only tangible downside AND it can be mitigated easily.

You're another person that forgets the ears.


And remember kids, forums are for discussion not opinion validation, which is what the OP is really looking for, someone who shares his bias.

And remember kids, reading comprehension is not as prevalent as one might think. (Check the rest of the thread, or end up just like Chav and RG.) This is not a reactionary post.

GODzillaGSPB, on 10 February 2013 - 02:31 AM, said:

The Awesome is an assault mech. Granted, one that is usually meant for bombardment over bigger distances, but still an assault. The Catapult is a support mech. You can use it as a brawler, but if you expect it to rule the battlefield, you get a shot through those big windows, meant to make artillery observations easier.

Support is just a role for a mech, the weight class matters little. Awesomes and catapults are both support chassis.
In fact, one could argue that the Catapult K2 is built with more brawling capability than the awesome. (2 MLs 2 MGs vs 1 SL for fighting inside 90)

Awesomes used to have the jumbo head too; but even though they have assault scale armor and can mount 4 SRM 6s in one chassis, 6-7 MPLS in another, 5 LL's/PPCs in another.. go 80+kph in another (two)... and have all had their torso twist range and speed buffed.. they still retain the smaller then life cockpit hitbox.

--------------------------------
All I really want is for the mechs to have equal size head hitboxes, whether they bring them all to the same size as the cat, or bring the cat in line with the rest.

(And for those of you who have difficulty reading: I do drive two cats among every other chassis in the game, I don't brawl with either of them and I handle them very well, this is objective, not a reaction.)

Edited by Livewyr, 10 February 2013 - 04:49 AM.

[Tuku]

Livewyr, on 10 February 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

That cat already has a glaring weakness people just don't take advantage of- those giant satellite dishes for arms where most people keep most/all of their weapons that can be picked off at 1000 meters. (AC20 cats don't obviously.. but then.. they have the same glaring weakness as SRM cats.. extremely limited range.)

(Also, there are plenty of people agreeing with me too, some of them not necessarily from an objective point of view so that doesn't help, but plenty of others agree.) You're not still mad that I told you to p*ss off in TS are you? (Don't answer that- it was rhetorical.)



And remember kids, reading comprehension is not as prevalent as one might think. (Check the rest of the thread, or end up just like Chav and RG.) This is not a reactionary post.



Support is just a role for a mech, the weight class matters little. Awesomes and catapults are both support chassis.
In fact, one could argue that the Catapult K2 is built with more brawling capability than the awesome. (2 MLs 2 MGs vs 1 SL for fighting inside 90)

Awesomes used to have the jumbo head too; but even though they have assault scale armor and can mount 4 SRM 6s in one chassis, 6-7 MPLS in another, 5 LL's/PPCs in another.. go 80+kph in another (two)... and have all had their torso twist range and speed buffed.. they still retain the smaller then life cockpit hitbox.

--------------------------------
All I really want is for the mechs to have equal size head hitboxes, whether they bring them all to the same size as the cat, or bring the cat in line with the rest.

(And for those of you who have difficulty reading: I do drive two cats among every other chassis in the game, I don't brawl with either of them and I handle them very well, this is objective, not a reaction.)

The catapults head hitbox was made smaller way back when. The problem is that people aim for that because its the quickest way to take out a sniper. Like I said before its the top third maybe quarter of the visible cockpit. Anyone who runs a gaussapult or AC20 cat knows this and exactly where to aim for a quick catapult kill....Just like when they see a Hunchback, Centurion, Cataphract, or anything else with a head hitbox bigger than a pea.

What I think may be happening to you is that before the hitboxes and hit detection was out of wack and so headshots where hit or miss. Now that some of that has been fixed you are taking more headshots when people take the time to aim at it.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Livewyr, on 10 February 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

In fact, one could argue that the Catapult K2 is built with more brawling capability than the awesome. (2 MLs 2 MGs vs 1 SL for fighting inside 90)

Correct. The Catapult is also usually faster (can be), it's shape is smaller, it is generally more difficult to hit and has a huge torso twist angle, which allows him to shield his front side by turning the front away from incoming fire.

The Awesome is shaped like a walking brick, a huge target, and the heat is clearly in top, so it was logical to make it's heat-hitbox smaller. And it is logical to do nothing of the like for the Catapult. Just my 5 cents.

[Livewyr]

Tuku, on 10 February 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

The catapults head hitbox was made smaller way back when. The problem is that people aim for that because its the quickest way to take out a sniper. Like I said before its the top third maybe quarter of the visible cockpit. Anyone who runs a gaussapult or AC20 cat knows this and exactly where to aim for a quick catapult kill....Just like when they see a Hunchback, Centurion, Cataphract, or anything else with a head hitbox bigger than a pea.

What I think may be happening to you is that before the hitboxes and hit detection was out of wack and so headshots where hit or miss. Now that some of that has been fixed you are taking more headshots when people take the time to aim at it.

(As I said before, I rarely get headshot, I don't know why people keep thinking I posted this because I'm getting headshot too much.)
The problem I see is that the head hitbox is massive compared to others. It takes up about 1/4 of the CT, no other mech has that.

GODzillaGSPB, on 10 February 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

Correct. The Catapult is also usually faster (can be), it's shape is smaller, it is generally more difficult to hit and has a huge torso twist angle, which allows him to shield his front side by turning the front away from incoming fire.

The Awesome is shaped like a walking brick, a huge target, and the heat is clearly in top, so it was logical to make it's heat-hitbox smaller. And it is logical to do nothing of the like for the Catapult. Just my 5 cents.

The catapult isn't a brick from the front, but those ears are easily shot no matter what way the mech is facing. (One can at least turn the awesome to the side and become a very thin profile. (A cat can't turn sideways for protection because that exposes easy shots for CT, ST, and Ears.. as opposed to just CT and Ears.)

[MrPils]

If you rarely get headshot what's the problem? Do you want to never get headshot?

Cataphract, awesome and hunchback have easier to snipe heads than the cat at range. The cat is easier to headshot close in while youre on the move as its head is lower. Centurion is easiest from the side and rear due to the mohawk. Atlas, Stalker and Cat are easy from above.

Just because you pilot Cats and see this doesn't mean that other chassis dont have the same distinct weakness. Your limited perspective is causing this perception. Its not the only chassis with an easy to pop head by any stretch, you just haven't noticed the others

Edited by MrPils, 10 February 2013 - 06:37 AM.

[Tuku]

Livewyr, on 10 February 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

(As I said before, I rarely get headshot, I don't know why people keep thinking I posted this because I'm getting headshot too much.)
The problem I see is that the head hitbox is massive compared to others. It takes up about 1/4 of the CT, no other mech has that.

So your problem is that it isn't like other mechs so far as the head hitbox goes? Why should it not have a bigger head hitbox? Look at the visual of the cockpit its HUGE. Variety between mechs is what makes this game intresting.

[Livewyr]

MrPils, on 10 February 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

If you rarely get headshot what's the problem? Do you want to never get headshot?

Cataphract, awesome and hunchback have easier to snipe heads than the cat at range. The cat is easier to headshot close in while youre on the move as its head is lower. Centurion is easiest from the side and rear due to the mohawk. Atlas, Stalker and Cat are easy from above.

Just because you pilot Cats and see this doesn't mean that other chassis dont have the same distinct weakness. Your limited perspective is causing this perception. Its not the only chassis with an easy to pop head by any stretch, you just haven't noticed the others

Cataphract's head is not the same as its glass.. that is the point I'm trying to make.. it's not. (Hunchies head is about right, not a big cockpit, but when you hit the windows, it hits the cockpit.) Cataphract started out with the Hitbox the same as the glass, but was reduced after getting headshot a lot. (As far as I know you can't headshot a mech from behind- at least I haven't been able to.. just hit's CT in front or back.)

Also- I don't have a limited perspective (if you read the previous posts carefully..) I have at least one of every chassis elited out..many of them mastered. This is objective after playing all the mechs.

Tuku, on 10 February 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

So your problem is that it isn't like other mechs so far as the head hitbox goes? Why should it not have a bigger head hitbox? Look at the visual of the cockpit its HUGE. Variety between mechs is what makes this game intresting.

Look at the visual on the Cataphract and the Awesome..

[Wolfways]

Mounty, on 10 February 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

How is what I said a contradiction???? I use an Atlas for sniping at present because there's no advantage to using a Cat, I'm suggesting that there should be more to distingush different mech designs. If you think there's a contradiction in there somewhere you might want to invest in a dictionary.

What does a Cat have to do with anything?
Anyway, my point is an Atlas is an assault mech. Actually it's the best brawler assault. It's not meant to sit at the back sniping.
The best sniper mech imo is the Cataphract 4X with two gauss.

[Adrienne Vorton]

Tuoweit, on 09 February 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

You must be playing on a different server than the rest of us. Where we play, it's virtually guaranteed that you have at least 2 catapults, and often more, every match.

yea, and at least 2 atlases and cataphracts and... so where was my statement wrong exactly?

[Steven Dixon]

As others have said the cat has several advantages over the atlas and awesome. Essentially its fairly hard to hit a cat because they are more mobile, atlases&awesomes are big and slow so its easy to hit their heads which is why they made the hitbox so small. Most people don't target the heads of cats (unless the pilot is foolish enough to stand still) but targeting the heads of atlases and awesomes was fairly easy. When awesomes first came out I was killing them with headshots left and right.

Edited by Steven Dixon, 11 February 2013 - 02:38 PM.

[Xyroc]

cats need no sort of buff .... that is all !

[Josef Nader]

Yes, let's remove the one legitimate weakness of the Catapult chassis. It isn't good enough already.

[Gaan Cathal]

Josef Nader, on 11 February 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

Yes, let's remove the one legitimate weakness of the Catapult chassis. It isn't good enough already.

I dunno, could do with a bit more torso twist, it currently needs to take a whole two steps to switch it's aim 180 degrees. That's two steps too many, I say.

[Oy of MidWorld]

I think this is actually a troll topic.

[ProtoformX]

This bunch is making the Catapult sound like 'all that' and a bag of ******* skittles. The giant Micky Mouse ears aren't enough of a drawback? How about the enormous CT?


The Catapult's cockpit size is one of MANY weaknesses. It is far, far from OP.

-SRM boats are a typical one-trick pony that deals 0 damage at 271m.
-Gausscats go boom now.
-AC20 cats are yet again a one-trick pony with limited range, and terrible, terrible mobility.

Just because the mech is popular does not mean it needs additional weaknesses. The mech is not popular because it's OP... So what are the real reasons that the Catapult is so popular?:

1.) Currently, it's the closest thing to a Mad Cat/Timberwolf and people love that iconic design.
2.) The hard points are symmetrical, not favoring one side of the mech like most designs. This is less taxing on your brain, and means you'll retain at least 50% of your weapons when losing an arm or side.
3.) Multitude of viable load-out options.

I strongly agree that the Catapult could use a slight cockpit size reduction. Cockpitting should be a RARE event. I would like to see it become nigh-impossible unless the mech is shutdown right in front of you.

[SlightlyNoobish]

Livewyr, on 09 February 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

(Did a search, only place discussing it was closed down- patch feedback.)

I think that Catapults need to get the same treatment the Atlases and Awesomes got.. The hitbox for the atlas cockpit is actually smaller than the visual for it's eye (and surrounding area)
Awesome is same way.

I think the Catapult needs the same treatment.

(And no, I don't drive catapults a whole (and rarely get headshot) lot so this isn't a reactionary rant thread.)

Here is what happens to Catapult heads

http://www.twitch.tv...liser/c/1916806

[Franchi]

The catapult cockpit is not an issue.

I own and have played all the variants in every imaginable role I've brawled I've sniped I'e blacked out the sun with LRMS and I've hunted lights. I even own 2 A1's because I can't be troubled to change the load out when I want to change between my two favorites.

I have rarely been killed with a head shot (missile rain in the cockpit does not count) I can only remember 4, and 3 of those were in games where several people were head shot in rapid succession indicating extreme skill or aim-boting.


That said I have no real issue with all head hit boxes being normalized; I do however feel that it would detract from the flavor of mechs and is undesirable.

Edited by Franchi, 11 February 2013 - 04:17 PM.

[Zrave]

I think we could use a reminder of the discrepancy we're talking about.

Check out this thread by Rainbow Unikorn:

http://mwomercs.com/...x-localisation/

Look at the heavy mechs: dragon, cataphract, and then catapult.

[MrPils]

Livewyr, on 10 February 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Cataphract's head is not the same as its glass.. that is the point I'm trying to make.. it's not. (Hunchies head is about right, not a big cockpit, but when you hit the windows, it hits the cockpit.) Cataphract started out with the Hitbox the same as the glass, but was reduced after getting headshot a lot. (As far as I know you can't headshot a mech from behind- at least I haven't been able to.. just hit's CT in front or back.)

Also- I don't have a limited perspective (if you read the previous posts carefully..) I have at least one of every chassis elited out..many of them mastered. This is objective after playing all the mechs.

Look at the visual on the Cataphract and the Awesome..

I didnt mention anything about model sizes or glass or anything. I purely pointed out the cat is not the only mech with a larger head hitbox and it is not the most vulnerable to headshots.

The low glass panels on the cat count as centre torso. The upper panel and just behind it count as a headshot. Confirmed many times with my PPC stalker. [Ninja edit - having looked at the link above this could be an effect of playing from the UK, either way any hits I get on the lower panels of glass always count as CT]

My personal favorites to pop are LRM hunchbacks and fleeing centurions. Both are a very simple shot if you stay calm and pick your moment. The least rewarding is the cataphract as if you headshot those its usually because they charged straight at you *********** over multiple UAC5s. Just a bad chassis to brawl against an alpha boat in. The common demoninator in all these is a bad build for the chassis or bad piloting makes a simple headshot. Any other headshot is one in a hundred and just as likely to happen to any chassis regardless of its head hitbox. Anyway, I ramble. Way past bedtime

Edited by MrPils, 11 February 2013 - 04:35 PM.

[p00k]

as far as cockpits go

atlas: fine
awesome: could be slightly bigger, not as big as it used to be
stalker: fine

cataphract: needs to be a decent bit bigger, though not as big as it originally was
catapult: fine
dragon: fine

hunchback: fine
centurion: fine
cicada: fine

light mechs: who cares no one cockpits light mechs anyways

i've taken a single med laser, slowly raked over everything that looked like it could possibly be cockpit, and killed a fresh (disconnected) cataphract without doing a single point of cockpit damage, all center torso. the very center tall rectangle pane, all the side and top/bottom panes, all the struts between those panes, while standing directly in front of it at slightly higher elevation.

i know they didn't like the easy headshots when the phract was first released, but they went a bit overboard.