63 replies to this topic

[Kousagi]

Codejack, on 10 February 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Send out target data to whom?! I'M THE ONE FIRING THE $%@!ing MISSILES!

How are you going to fire missiles at under 180m when all lockon missiles are jammed... please do explain that one..

[Codejack]

Kousagi, on 10 February 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

How are you going to fire missiles at under 180m when all lockon missiles are jammed... please do explain that one..

OMFG, are you listening to yourself or seriously just trolling me?!

[Kousagi]

Codejack, on 10 February 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

OMFG, are you listening to yourself or seriously just trolling me?!

So basically you admit that Tag is not countered by ECM. Good to know.

[Codejack]

Kousagi, on 10 February 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

So basically you admit that Tag is not countered by ECM. Good to know.

No, TAG is countered by ECM. If it wasn't, YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO LOCK ON WHEN YOU WERE USING IT INSIDE THE BUBBLE!

Are the words too big for you?

[BL00D RAVEN]

i tried lrms, it's not that hard to dumb fire and hit clustered enemies
it is hard to hit fast mechs, but i suspect that is only from my lack of practice.

[Kousagi]

Codejack, on 10 February 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

No, TAG is countered by ECM. If it wasn't, YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO LOCK ON WHEN YOU WERE USING IT INSIDE THE BUBBLE!

Are the words too big for you?

How would it lock on, if ECM is jamming the Lockon Missiles? This has nothing to do with tag at all... The Missile systems themselves are being jammed, not tag...

[Deamhan]

I'm not understanding what is difficult about the TAG.

If the TAG user is inside the bubble, the TAG is rendered useless. No lock at all for anybody. If the TAG is used by someone outside the bubble, then it allows everyone (except those who are inside the bubble) to get a lock to fire their missiles. It's that simple.

This is why TAG is best equipped on people that use long range direct fire weapons. They need line of sight to use their weapons and they will be outside the bubble. LRM support can then rain missiles down from behind cover on the painted target. LRM could pack their own TAG but could no longer indirectly fire their LRMs from behind cover.

It's useless for Brawlers to use it (except for the bonus it grants on streak missiles but as a brawler, you'd be better off bringing a med laser instead) since you will be inside the bubble so your TAG will not work and the LRM boats still can't get a lock or there is no bubble to worry about and the LRM boats can target off of your target. As long as you make sure to actually target the mech you are engaging (far too few people seem to do this).

Now understanding and agreeing are two different things. Personally I think that if the TAG user is outside the bubble, it functions the same as it does now but if the user is inside the bubble, then the user and only the user can still lock onto the painted target.

[Kaspirikay]

Deamhan, on 10 February 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

I'm not understanding what is difficult about the TAG. If the TAG user is inside the bubble, the TAG is rendered useless. No lock at all for anybody. If the TAG is used by someone outside the bubble, then it allows everyone (except those who are inside the bubble) to get a lock to fire their missiles. It's that simple. This is why TAG is best equipped on people that use long range direct fire weapons. They need line of sight to use their weapons and they will be outside the bubble. LRM support can then rain missiles down from behind cover on the painted target. LRM could pack their own TAG but could no longer indirectly fire their LRMs from behind cover. It's useless for Brawlers to use it (except for the bonus it grants on streak missiles but as a brawler, you'd be better off bringing a med laser instead) since you will be inside the bubble so your TAG will not work and the LRM boats still can't get a lock or there is no bubble to worry about and the LRM boats can target off of your target. As long as you make sure to actually target the mech you are engaging (far too few people seem to do this). Now understanding and agreeing are two different things. Personally I think that if the TAG user is outside the bubble, it functions the same as it does now but if the user is inside the bubble, then the user and only the user can still lock onto the painted target.

Tag is weird atm. Its a soft counter. A very, soft counter. Very flaccid. flaaacid.

[Omigir]

Kaspirikay, on 10 February 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

Increase targeting time, meaning lock on time, by 2 times and have ECMed mechs appear on radar when they're under 500m from you or something and remove that lock on immunity?

That way, ECM will still be useful vs LRM but will now require users to take cover. They'll just have a bigger margin of freedom compared to no ECM. Instead of the total immunity, baring tag and ECCM, we have now.

SSRMs will also be affected as damage will take twice as long to begin. Though it would be better if SSRMs require a relock after every shot. Would go nicely with this ECM change.

I feel lock on immunity is too much for ECM to have. Coupled with sensor invisibility after 250m means its extremely difficult for locked weapons to be effective.

Thoughts?

that is what TAG does, so really, your idea is already implemented.. use TAG and this essentially what you get. Save you can target them from 150 out to 750. So.. really tag is better then what you are suggesting.

[Ave Hax]

ALright ecm is not going to leave sadly
pgi took it to far sure
needs nerfing sure
the stack ecm trial test fail
max stack should be 2 max
i couldnt beat ecm so i joined em and yes daddys sorry
i am currently doubeling my kill ratio 1/2 way there and closing fast
ecm is overpowered having used it pgi is needing a fix for this
like beagle doing its table top job the table top had balance because of this assault teams with ecm are redicouls i have done it been trying out the t3 serv in 4 man
too 8 of 10 pugs or so loose not just to ecm but communication is key
see ya out there

[Ave Hax]

Oh and ecm killing tag yes good for strategy lock down lrms
however in a pug almost not possible no communication
and paired with poor drop ratio with it ouch pgi

[Taizan]

Today I got a LRM kill without TAG or lock on a ECM D-DC. Point and shoot! Made my day. Sometimes I have the feeling the real people punished by ECM are those that are lulled into a false sense of security.

[Vassago Rain]

DocBach, on 10 February 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

L2P... aim noob missles arent the only wepons in the game... get some actual skill and use srms or acs

This.

[Deamhan]

Taizan, on 10 February 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Today I got a LRM kill without TAG or lock on a ECM D-DC. Point and shoot! Made my day. Sometimes I have the feeling the real people punished by ECM are those that are lulled into a false sense of security.

So because you got lucky, things must be fine.

LOL.

[Codejack]

Kousagi, on 10 February 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

How would it lock on, if ECM is jamming the Lockon Missiles? This has nothing to do with tag at all... The Missile systems themselves are being jammed, not tag...

/facepalm

I give up, someone else try to explain it to him.

[Kaspirikay]

Omigir, on 10 February 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

that is what TAG does, so really, your idea is already implemented.. use TAG and this essentially what you get. Save you can target them from 150 out to 750. So.. really tag is better then what you are suggesting.

I get that Tag can be useful, but one thing that many people on the forums do not know is how difficult it is to use Tag and have your crosshairs stay pointed in the middle of the box when you have a ping of 250,s and above. Most of the time, I'll have to lead the target so much that I lose the lock on.

Also, Tag isn't a fix. Whats the point of having direct line of sight and use LRMs when I can use my 2 AC20s on my K2? Keep in mind, I'm talking based on pugs only. I know in premades its possible to have Tag work fine with teamwork.

[Voidsinger]

Technically, operating an active radar yourself while using ECM should make you targetable, since you're now an emmitter, and you should be able to target the source of the emmisions. So Streaks, which have their own fire control radar, hooked into the main sensors would need an emmision source.

This might make BAP worth it, since it can lock streaks on shut down mechs already. Add this ability. 1.5 tons should make for a whole lot of sensory processing ability, just not a radar extension and fast ID that modules get better bonuses for.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Codejack, on 10 February 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

/facepalm

I give up, someone else try to explain it to him.

Codejack is a troll and should be ignored.... How's that? I think I got the gist of it.

[Rakashan]

While Codejack probably is a troll, the fact that the rest of you are illiterate is not helping...

Follow the simple logic. At 200m I can not lock SSRMs or LRMs on a mech using ECM. I hit him with TAG and I can now lock and fire my own missiles. I can also share that lock with other people, but who cares. Assume that I (or Codejack) is the last mech alive on my team. Sharing data does not matter.

His point is that as soon as he enters 180m he can no longer lock the enemy mech himself, even if he has tagged. While that does not matter for LRMs since they're inside range, it *does* matter for SSRMs.


And for all those who are responding that missiles are not the only weapon in the game and learn to play, the simple response is that ECM is not the only module in the game, learn to drive without it. The problem people have is that for 1 crit space and 1.5 tons it is miles better than BAP, NARC or AMS and still well ahead of TAG. I expect to have to cope with the effects that ECM produces... I just want the people running it to have invested 15,000 gxp and a few Module slots, the way the proposed counters require... You know, *balance*.

Edited by Rakashan, 10 February 2013 - 08:44 PM.

[Kaspirikay]

Rakashan, on 10 February 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

While Codejack probably is a troll, the fact that the rest of you are illiterate is not helping... Follow the simple logic. At 200m I can not lock SSRMs or LRMs on a mech using ECM. I hit him with TAG and I can now lock and fire my own missiles. I can also share that lock with other people, but who cares. Assume that I (or Codejack) is the last mech alive on my team. Sharing data does not matter. His point is that as soon as he enters 180m he can no longer lock the enemy mech himself, even if he has tagged. While that does not matter for LRMs since they're inside range, it *does* matter for SSRMs. And for all those who are responding that missiles are not the only weapon in the game and learn to play, the simple response is that ECM is not the only module in the game, learn to drive without it. The problem people have is that for 1 crit space and 1.5 tons it is miles better than BAP, NARC or AMS and still well ahead of TAG. I expect to have to cope with the effects that ECM produces... I just want the people running it to have invested 15,000 gxp and a few Module slots, the way the proposed counters require... You know, *balance*.

This x1000