20 replies to this topic

[Redwo1f]

Oh mighty MWO vets, please help me to solve this conundrum:

everything else being equal, i can either "downgrade" (with some adjustments - switching to endo & standard armor instead of FF and standard structure) to a standard engine (with the same speed as the XL) and gain the advantage of losing those critical slots in the left & right toros (survivability) or replace a MPL with a LPL (fire power).

In general, what would you guys recommend?

thanks for any words of wisdom.

[ICEFANG13]

Make it and link it with this
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

because its too vague what you asked.

[Vassago Rain]

FF is always a bad idea, except if you total 35 or less tons of weight.

[Carnivoris]

Smurfy is awesome. But, a more fundamental answer to your question is this: Are you fast? You could probably go for the firepower and lose some armor. Are you slow? Bulk up on your armor. You'll need the survivability.

Think of speed as sort of a secondary armor. A speedy mech is harder to hit and keep in your firing arc. A slow mech needs to be able to stand there and take a pounding because you're not going to have much choice.

[Taizan]

Moving this discussion to the Battlemechs sub forum, where it is more appropriate.

[Alymbic]

As a side note, if your using Ferro and not using Endo you should really switch as soon as you can. Both are weight saving methods, but you will always get more out of endo than ferro, and both take the same number of crits.

[Eisenhorne]

Vassago Rain, on 10 February 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

FF is always a bad idea, except if you total 35 or less tons of weight.

Not entirely true. I build my DRG-FLAME with Endo Steel and FF armor... 2 large pulse, 2 medium pulse, and an XL350. Very fast, very deadly. The FF armor lets me get an extra ton of protection on it for the same weight, and I've got the slots to spare.

[Redwo1f]

i do have to run, but i can quickly say it is with a Cataphract - not fast, no terribly slow (average). i have the weapon loadout i like - tonnage ain't an issue, it is the slots...anyway, what i posted was my last major tinker. thanks for the thoughts so far.

[ICEFANG13]

Never have an XL in almost all Cataphracts, too large side torsos.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Here are some mech building guidelines:

1 - Never do FF unless you have already done ES and still have over 14 crits left and need the weight. Basically, only some light builds should be doing this (with a few rare exceptions; I briefly had a Cataphract with both until I changed the loadout a bit and dropped the FF).

2 - XLs are only safe on a handful of mech types: the Dragon, Catapult, Raven, Jenner, and Cicada. If your mech is one of those, then it is not a terrible idea to buy firepower by switching to an XL. If it is anything else, then unless you have a very specific build (that is extreme range and really needs the weight, like a dual-Gauss or PPC-spam build of some kind) you do not want to bring an XL along. Mechs that especially must avoid XLs include but are not limited to the Cataphract (huge shoulders), Hunchback (huge shoulder that everyone focuses, except the 4SP which still has pretty easy to hit sides), and Awesome (huge sides that pop very quickly). The Centurion is another risky XL carrier, and the Atlas and Stalker are both easy enough to blow that it isn't really worth it. Spiders and Commandos can work if you are going for full-on speed, but they are riskier than Ravens and Jenners (who have much lower side torso profiles).

Since you are running a Cataphract, avoid the XL unless you are boating Gauss or PPCs or something (quad AC5s perhaps). Your side torsos are super vulnerable.

[John MatriX82]

FF doesn't give you more protection.. Endo gives you much bigger weight savings, add FF only when you really have free slots after you've upgraded to endo. Something that happens often in lights, sometimes in mediums and rarely above.

[NRP]

I'm going to recommend fire power over perceived survivability. I run about an equal number of XL engines and STD engines, and I don't find I survive longer with a STD engine, at least not to the degree that would warrant all the XL phobia that is common on these forums. Most of the time when I die I'm getting swarmed by overwhelming numbers, and in that case living a few seconds longer doesn't really matter. Just learn to spread in coming damage around your mech by torso twisting while your weapons recycle and you'll be fine with an XL engine.

Just my $0.02.

[Hex Pallett]

General rule of engine type: Unless XL can bring your speed up to 80+ km/h (tweaked), skip it.

(with the exception of Cataphract 4X, Muromet, and almost all Stalkers. The weight you saved by an XL would let you fit incredible firepower into those machines.)

Edited by Helmstif, 11 February 2013 - 02:11 PM.

[John MatriX82]

Helmstif, on 10 February 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

General rule of engine type: Unless XL can bring your speed up to 80+ km/h, skip it.

(with the exception of Cataphract 4X, Muromet, and almost all Stalkers. The weight you saved by an XL would let you fit incredible firepower into those machines.)

I can agree with most of what you say but Stalkers really don't need XLs at all, most of the time it's better to run those 6 wasted slots in the rt&lt with 2 DHS, either with 280 or 300 rated engines. That chassis can do wonders... but since you don't have tanking arms like those of an Atlas, slapping an XL in a Stalker is riskier than an Atlai with XL 360.

Also Dragons and Catapults can mount XLs with ease

[joedawg39s]

Unless you are a sniper, don't go xl on a phract unless it is for the extra speed, a fast cataphract is a nasty flanker if played right. Also as stated before, switch out the ff armor for endosteel. Endo will save 3.5 tons and ferro will only save under 1.5 tons at full armor(depending on how the game rounds). I did the same thing in my first mech just be thankful you aren't paying for repairs. You should also look into dual heat sinks. Seeing your build would be a big help though.

[Redwo1f]

thanks for the suggestions fellas (and ladies too if any) - i decided to go standard engine.
CTF-3D
End, DB HS
Stnd 280 engine
almost full standard armor (-some from the legs)
2x ERLL in torsos
2x MPL in arms
1x UAC5 in torso 2T ammo (this replaced my LB10-x which wasn't doing me that good)
15 DB HS
AMS

[Orgasmo]

FF is not worth it unless you are running a light mech. I would also advise against using XL engine in a brawler. The only mech I currently use XL engine on is the Atlas-K, and I use it as a long range direct fire platform.

[qki]

Vassago Rain, on 10 February 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

FF is always a bad idea, except if you total 35 or less tons of weight.

I run FF on my wang and my cat c1 - both are down to 1 or 0 critical slots after that - same as my commie. Depends on what you put in.

[Stingz]

qki, on 11 February 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

I run FF on my wang and my cat c1 - both are down to 1 or 0 critical slots after that - same as my commie. Depends on what you put in.

AC/20 based builds seem to fit Ferro with no issues. The Hunchback-4G config can easily fit Endo+Ferro(if using a STD 250).

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Never choose one over the other. Extremes are never the answer, so Bhuddify your mech and seek balance.