14 replies to this topic

[R E A V E R]

ECM does too much, but instead of bitching about actually changing the equipment its-self, how about creating an ECCM module for mechs that has to be unlocked

It could be a dual level module like the sensor decay etc.... with 10,000 GXP for level 1 and 20,000 GXP for level 2. Level 1 takes a module slot and level 2 takes an additional module slot.

Level 1
COST 10,000 GXP / 8,000,000 cb

ECM mech shows on radar at 600m
ECM mech targetable for LRMs at 450m or less
ECM mech targetable for streaks at 125m or less

Level 2
COST adittional 10,000 GXP / 15,000,000 cb

ECM mech shows on radar at 800
ECM mech targetable for LRMs at 700m or less
ECM mech targetable for streaks at 200m or less

Aditional perameters

The ECCM module only disrupts the ECM for the mech it is equipped to. all other mechs still suffer the ECM effect.
BAP must also be equipped to the mech for the module to function. Therefore making BAP viable equipment again.

that will mean that only the truly dedicated players would beable to unmask an ECM mech using a standard chassis equipped with BAP and the ECCM module.

It will also mean that ECM will still have unique ECCM capabilities

Thoughts anyone?????

[Star Colonel Mustard Kerensky]

ECCM should NOT be a module.

[Eddrick]

Does same as Bloodhound Active Probe. Makes the user immune to Guardian ECM Suite

[Lefty Lucy]

Eddrick, on 10 February 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

Does same as Bloodhound Active Probe. Makes the user immune to Guardian ECM Suite

Ummm... the BAP does no such thing. In fact, the BAP gets shut off by ECM. It's one of the few things ECM actually does in tournament-level rules. The only utility the BAP gives you against ECM playing double-blind (something pretty much nobody ever does) is that when it gets shut off by ECM you know that there is an enemy unit carrying ECM within 6 hexes.

[Mr Mantis]

Eddrick, on 10 February 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

Does same as Bloodhound Active Probe. Makes the user immune to Guardian ECM Suite

Too bad we would have to wait 8 years to get that.

[Star Colonel Mustard Kerensky]

Lefty Lucy, on 10 February 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

Ummm... the BAP does no such thing. In fact, the BAP gets shut off by ECM. It's one of the few things ECM actually does in tournament-level rules. The only utility the BAP gives you against ECM playing double-blind (something pretty much nobody ever does) is that when it gets shut off by ECM you know that there is an enemy unit carrying ECM within 6 hexes.

Bloodhound != beagle. L2READ.

[Eddrick]

Mr Mantis, on 10 February 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

Too bad we would have to wait 8 years to get that.

Alternativly, let the Beagle Active Probe be immune to the Guardian ECM Suite and let the Bloodhound Active Prove be immune to the Angle ECM Suite. So, we don't have to deal with the same problem when the Angle ECM Suite becomes available.

[Khobai]

Quote

Bloodhound != beagle. L2READ.

likewise guardian ecm != angel ecm

[Star Colonel Mustard Kerensky]

Khobai, on 10 February 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

likewise guardian ecm != angel ecm

What we have now is gaurdian (even if it behaves like angel) so bloodhound counters it.

[Strum Wealh]

Astroniomix, on 10 February 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

What we have now is gaurdian (even if it behaves like angel) so bloodhound counters it.

So what, precisely, is MWO's rendition of Guardian ECM doing that seems to have so many people under the illusion that it is "behaving like Angel ECM"?

[Apoc1138]

Strum Wealh, on 11 February 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

So what, precisely, is MWO's rendition of Guardian ECM doing that seems to have so many people under the illusion that it is "behaving like Angel ECM"?

blocking streaks... the only things that Angel does in TT better than Guardian is;

block streaks
block Bloodhound Active Probe (an advance version of Beagle that has an effect on Guardian ECM)
counts as 2 ECM / ECCM for the purposes of ECCM wars

so the fact that MWO's GECM blocks streaks under 180m has everyone's panties in a twist (if you use adv. sensor range module you can use streaks from 180m to 250m)

Edited by Apoc1138, 11 February 2013 - 04:02 AM.

[Monkey Bone]

So with no tonnage cost, instead of a suffering grinding cost you can get "iwin" versus ECM instead of proper balancing.

[Strum Wealh]

Apoc1138, on 11 February 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

blocking streaks... the only things that Angel does in TT better than Guardian is;

block streaks
block Bloodhound Active Probe (an advance version of Beagle that has an effect on Guardian ECM)
counts as 2 ECM / ECCM for the purposes of ECCM wars

so the fact that MWO's GECM blocks streaks under 180m has everyone's panties in a twist (if you use adv. sensor range module you can use streaks from 180m to 250m)

Angel doesn't so much "block Streaks" as it makes them "go dumb" after firing, removing their "always-hit" quality.

"The Angel ECM Suite works like standard ECM, but can also block the Bloodhound Active Probe, Artemis V and C3 Booster Systems, and even negates the locking systems of Streak missiles. Streak missiles fired into or through a hostile Angel ECM bubble will not fire if the to-hit roll fails, but on a successful Streak launcher attack, the attacker must roll on the Cluster table as though the launcher were a standard (non-Streak) model."
(Tactical Operations, pg. 279)

Contrast with normal Streak operation:
"A player attempting to lock a Streak missile on target must make a standard to-hit roll during the Weapon Attack Phase as if he were firing a standard SRM. If successful, the player immediately fires his Streak SRM at the locked-on target. All Streak missiles automatically hit (no roll on the Cluster Hits Table is required), and the player rolls as normal to determine the hit locations. If the roll fails, the player does not achieve a lock and so does not fire the SRMs or build up any heat."
(Total Warfare, pg. 138)

However, the Streaks still need a successful lock-on (in TT terms: a successful to-hit roll) in order to fire at all, under any circumstances (including under the gimped firing conditions imposed by Angel); Streaks still won't ever fire in a no-lock situation (in TT terms: if the to-hit roll fails), regardless of whether or not ECM of any stripe is present.
(And no, there is no "override to dumb-fire"; TechManual makes it quite clear that this inflexibility on the part of Streaks is one of the primary reasons why standard SRMs remain viable.)

And it is this ability to lock-on that both Guardian and Angel attack, not the Streaks themselves.

"The ranges of various electronic sensor systems appear in the Sensor Range Table [TacOps, pg. 222]. To make a Sensor Check, the player rolls 2D6. A result of 7 or 8 means the sensor detects any unit within its short range. A result of 5 or 6 means the sensor detects units out to its medium range. A result of 2 to 4 means the sensor detects units out to its long range. A roll of 9 to 12 means the sensor failed to detect any units."
(Tactical Operations, pg. 222)

"In the double-blind game, all ECM and stealth systems modify the die roll results of spotting units attempting to detect an enemy unit equipped with such an ECM system. Because different ECM/stealth systems have different effects against different probes and sensors, the modifiers vary depending on the spotting unit’s probe/sensor and the enemy unit’s ECM system. These modifiers appear in the ECM/Stealth Modifier Table [TacOps, pg. 223]. Once the sensor detection dice roll has been made (including adding any bonus modifiers from the controlling player’s side), the player consults the ECM/Stealth Modifier Table and adds the applicable modifier to the roll result."
(Tactical Operations, pg. 224)

Even in Standard Day conditions on a clear and open field (so that there are no weather or environmental modifiers, from the Sensor Ranges Tables) and in the total absence of EW or stealth equipment (so that there are no modifiers from the ECM/Stealth Modifiers Table), 'Mech sensors can still fail to pick up an opponent ~27.8% of the time (the combined likelihood of rolling a 9, 10, 11, or 12 based on 2D6 probabilities).
(Imagine the QQ that would result if the radar simply "didn't work" roughly one-third of the time, even in the absence of ECM! )
For standard 'Mech Radar, introducing Guardian (and making no other changes) increases that likelihood of failure-to-detect to 91.6% (with an 8.4% chance of detection within 240 meters ('Mech Radar's "short" range, from the Sensor Ranges Tables)) and introducing Angel (and making no other changes) increases that likelihood to 97.2% (with a 2.8% chance of detection within 240 meters).
For Beagle, introducing Guardian (and making no other changes) increases that likelihood of failure-to-detect to 83.3% (with a 16.7% chance of detection within 360 meters (Beagle's "short" range, from the Sensor Ranges Tables)) and introducing Angel (and making no other changes) increases that likelihood to 91.6% (with an 8.4% chance of detection within 360 meters).

It would seem that the Devs took that system with those likelihoods in mind and (for now? ) simplified it so that , in TT terms, the Sensor Roll always fails.

Therefore:
If the sensors cannot find the target (due to ECM interference against the sensors), the targeting system (which depends on data from the sensors) cannot lock-on.
If the targeting system cannot lock-on, Streaks don't fire (because that is what they are designed to do).

[Fajther]

I agree eccm should be a seperate mod. Without the ability to counter it things are getting crazier then if they made ecm available to everyone.

[Rhent]

Hammur, on 10 February 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

ECM does too much, but instead of bitching about actually changing the equipment its-self, how about creating an ECCM module for mechs that has to be unlocked

It could be a dual level module like the sensor decay etc.... with 10,000 GXP for level 1 and 20,000 GXP for level 2. Level 1 takes a module slot and level 2 takes an additional module slot.

Level 1
COST 10,000 GXP / 8,000,000 cb

ECM mech shows on radar at 600m
ECM mech targetable for LRMs at 450m or less
ECM mech targetable for streaks at 125m or less

Level 2
COST adittional 10,000 GXP / 15,000,000 cb

ECM mech shows on radar at 800
ECM mech targetable for LRMs at 700m or less
ECM mech targetable for streaks at 200m or less

Aditional perameters

The ECCM module only disrupts the ECM for the mech it is equipped to. all other mechs still suffer the ECM effect.
BAP must also be equipped to the mech for the module to function. Therefore making BAP viable equipment again.

that will mean that only the truly dedicated players would beable to unmask an ECM mech using a standard chassis equipped with BAP and the ECCM module.

It will also mean that ECM will still have unique ECCM capabilities

Thoughts anyone?????

No, and I hate ECM. If everyone can carry the module it makes ECM effectively useless. What is being done for ECM is the following:

-TAG = 750M
-Sensor Modules allow you to target ECM equipped mechs at 160M to 250M from patch notes, I believe its getting a slightly larger boost
-PPC's disrupt ECM (can't wait for this, my PPC/LRM boat is going to *** all over the place on this one)


The whole point of ECM is to put it on specific chassis that have specific benefits and drawbacks. Putting ECCM on all mechs effectively eliminates the benefits of an ECM chassis and is a tonnage tax on all other builds because everyone has to have the ECCM module.