69 replies to this topic

[Megacromulent]

NOTE: title of thread was originally:
"Pgi Against Different Playing Styles, Forcing Everyone To Play The Same?"
--------------------------------------------

I like sniping, especially against other snipers, it's a blast, a game of technique and strategy. (dodging between cover, determining where you target has moved before you get hit back, etc...)

Brawling is fine, but it would be nice to not have the game designed to intentionally benefit one style of playing.

So here's the evidence that PGI intentionally has altered or designed the game to force us to play as brawlers, and is actively discouraging long range game play.

• Zoom has been nerfed. CryEngine has been blamed but many reports that zoomx4 worked perfectly in the past with full screen zoom. (whether you like/dislike that style of zoom is irrelevant, 4x zoom is no longer as high res as it once was)
  
• Lack of access to high or secluded places on maps. (tried with best Spider with all 12 JJ, can't get anywhere different than I can with 1 JJ on any spider model)
  
• All high locations are completely open with no cover, or near cover. (accept for the tower hill on forest, but any mech can get there)
  
• Small Maps.
  
• Convergence is often borked by cover, if you are too close your weapons may be affected and longer hit your reticule.
  
• Depth of field blurs distant objects, that should be obviously clear to normal vision. (like we are all nearsighted)
  
• Film grain adds "texture" to close objects (which at times is interesting, but still blurry), but adds more blur to further objects. Thus making depth of field even worse.
  
• Heat vision will not display a mech as far as normal vision, so 2 out of 6 maps instantly nerf sniping that much more. (night vision is even worse)
  
• REMOVED access to high point on large slope on River City!!. This one takes the cake. They made that area out of bounds, and one of the only genuine sniper perches on any map. (and it was even wide open with no cover)

All of these things (and likely more) force players to close in, and have to join brawls. Then the only viable long range game is LRM lobbing... (which can get boring and tedius, especially since many times ECM completely disables this play style)

Edited by Megachromulent, 11 February 2013 - 08:23 PM.

[Team Leader]

I agree that the game strongly favors all out brawling. Im not sure if I like that there really is a very small array of roles, which almost all essentially dissolve into close range combat, or long range weapons being used at medium-close range.

I really think map size and structure is the biggest reason here, along with the double armor and huge speeds. The huge speed and double armor comes into play as most short range weapons are much more potent than any long range weapons. By the time youre in long range combat the enemy will close on you with their close range weaponry. Because large, heavy, long range weapons are hurt the most by doubled armor, they smaller weapons are far more often the winner.

Edited by Team Leader, 11 February 2013 - 06:47 PM.

[Mal]

Heat vision allows you to see further then normal, or night vision. You can see across all of Forest Colony, for example.

[Dran]

Megachromulent, on 11 February 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

REMOVED access to high point on large slope on River City!!. This one takes the cake. They made that area out of bounds, and one of the only genuine sniper perches on any map. (and it was even wide open with no cover)

Was quite disappointed that they got rid of that spot. Was great for LRM or PPC/Gauss players :/

[Davers]

I have had a lot of success and fun with sniping builds lately. My Murromet 2xERPPC and Gauss and my Awesome ERPPC and 2 PPC builds have been working pretty well (It's a lot different from my usual Hunchbacks though and sometimes I forget to torso twist!).

Heat vision used to see very far-across the map on River City at least. Maybe this has changed?

But it is true that PGI designed the maps so they wouldn't be huge snipe-fests. But isn't that a good thing? Sniping is effective, but not so completely overwhelming that it is the only way to play.

[HurlockHolmes]

I can see your complaints, and some of them are legitimate concerns. Even as a brawler myself I do like it when my maps have verticality to them. Convergence is an issue, even for brawlers sometimes.

I disagree with the statement about heat vision though, I think it is much to powerful and that they need to improve the night vision instead of buff heat vision.

[One Medic Army]

My cataphract 2X (2x PPC, ERPPC, 2xSSRM) says you're doing it wrong.


Being up high as a sniper is only good until someone spots you, then you're an easy target. Start using cover at ground level.

[Megacromulent]

Mal, on 11 February 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Heat vision allows you to see further then normal, or night vision. You can see across all of Forest Colony, for example.

No, it only turns a brown blob into a blue blob, it doesn't increase visual range. I can see across forest colony without heat at all.

HurlockHolmes, on 11 February 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

I disagree with the statement about heat vision though, I think it is much to powerful and that they need to improve the night vision instead of buff heat vision.

No suggestion on buffing heat, clearing up normal vision is my general issue. NV needs improvement.

Davers, on 11 February 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

But it is true that PGI designed the maps so they wouldn't be huge snipe-fests. But isn't that a good thing? Sniping is effective, but not so completely overwhelming that it is the only way to play.

My point is that it's _actively_ being discouraged by game design choices, and that even something as simple as a high place was removed from a game map. There was no "snipe fests" before, so why remove this location from river city?

[Megacromulent]

One Medic Army, on 11 February 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

My cataphract 2X (2x PPC, ERPPC, 2xSSRM) says you're doing it wrong.

Yes, but you are a piloting a brawler mech...

One Medic Army, on 11 February 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Being up high as a sniper is only good until someone spots you, then you're an easy target.

Exactly, there are no high places with any cover...

One Medic Army, on 11 February 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Start using cover at ground level.

Which is not what a sniper does, they get a good view of their targets, preferablly up high, not at ground level.

Again, my point in my OP is that even the high places are being actively removed (as in last patch). The only people this benefits is those that prefer to brawl. I am not debating value or technique.

I am asking is "Pgi Against Different Playing Styles, Forcing Everyone To Play The Same?"

[Davers]

Megachromulent, on 11 February 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

My point is that it's _actively_ being discouraged by game design choices, and that even something as simple as a high place was removed from a game map. There was no "snipe fests" before, so why remove this location from river city?

Because the prevalence of 'jump sniping' from MW4 was perceived as something they didn't want in MWO. Same with 'circle strafing'; that's why there are so many 'urban' type settings with buildings you can stand with your back to. It's all in Dev Blog 0: Reboot.

[Megacromulent]

Davers, on 11 February 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Because the prevalence of 'jump sniping' from MW4 was perceived as something they didn't want in MWO. Same with 'circle strafing'; that's why there are so many 'urban' type settings with buildings you can stand with your back to. It's all in Dev Blog 0: Reboot.

Then why remove the very open slope on river city? It's completely wide open...

What is Dev Blog 0: Reboot?

So you are saying the answer is YES to my question?
Is "Pgi Against Different Playing Styles, Forcing Everyone To Play The Same?"

Edited by Megachromulent, 11 February 2013 - 06:41 PM.

[One Medic Army]

My point was that high places aren't necessary for being a sniper.
Also why are you calling a Cataphract with 3 PPCs a brawler?

As to elevated places with cover:
By the antenna on forest colony
Several hills on Frozen City
The large building on near G line on River City, as well as the entire northern city area and the upper base
Several large hills on Caustic, plus the caldera rim itself

Another thing, when real world snipers use elevated positions, they're not standing straight up highlighting themselves on a ridge like we are. That's because they can go prone, go inside buildings, etc...
We're piloting mechs, not walking around with a rifle.

If you want to use sniper tactics more suited to vehicles, sit on the reverse side of a hill with only your gun poking up over, like tanks do in the real world...

Edited by One Medic Army, 11 February 2013 - 06:46 PM.

[Davers]

Megachromulent, on 11 February 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

Then why remove the very open slope on river city? It's completely wide open...

What is Dev Blog 0: Reboot?

So you are saying the answer is YES to my question?
Is "Pgi Against Different Playing Styles, Forcing Everyone To Play The Same?"

http://mwomercs.com/...-blog-0-reboot/

The first Dev Blog where they talked about their design goals for the game and how it came about.

My answer is actually NO.

I think they have tried to make the maps able to handle a variety of play styles. Just that 'run at the other guy and hug him while firing SRMs' is easier than sniping so you see it more often.

[Mackman]

I'm confused. You say that someone using cover on ground level isn't sniping? Then what am I doing with my 4 PPC Stalker? Because it feels a lot like sniping.

It sounds like you don't just want to snipe--because you can already do that. No, what you want is the ability to easily get into a position from which you can snipe with impunity. You want a place that you can easily snipe from, but you can't be easily driven out of.

And as a dedicated sniper, i'm glad those types of places don't exist. That would make this game so incredibly boring, because at the beginning of every match, you'd have at least 3 or 4 mechs going straight to those locations.

[Teralitha]

Its their game, not our game, and they dont care what we think.

[Megacromulent]

One Medic Army, on 11 February 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

My point was that high places aren't necessary for being a sniper.
Also why are you calling a Cataphract with 3 PPCs a brawler?

Because I define a sniper as something that _can't_ brawl, where a cataphract simply can. The fact that you choose weapons that have a minimum range does not change your mech chassis.

One Medic Army, on 11 February 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

As to elevated places with cover:
By the antenna on forest colony
Several hills on Frozen City
The large building on near G line on River City, as well as the entire northern city area and the upper base
Several large hills on Caustic, plus the caldera rim itself

I listed the antenna on forest, the others simply a little higher (some the same height) And my OP is regarding PGI's intentions, based on the experiences playing for months, and they active changes. Not whether there are few "high" places that any mech can get to.

One Medic Army, on 11 February 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

Another thing, when real world snipers use elevated positions, they're not standing straight up highlighting themselves on a ridge like we are. That's because they can go prone, go inside buildings, etc...
We're piloting mechs, not walking around with a rifle.

Which is a good natural nerf to "real" sniping, you argue against yourself...

Mackman, on 11 February 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

I'm confused. You say that someone using cover on ground level isn't sniping? Then what am I doing with my 4 PPC Stalker? Because it feels a lot like sniping.

This will get into semantics like so many other posts, my QUESTION IS:
Is "Pgi Against Different Playing Styles, Forcing Everyone To Play The Same?"

Mackman, on 11 February 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

It sounds like you don't just want to snipe--because you can already do that. No, what you want is the ability to easily get into a position from which you can snipe with impunity. You want a place that you can easily snipe from, but you can't be easily driven out of.

And as a dedicated sniper, i'm glad those types of places don't exist. That would make this game so incredibly boring, because at the beginning of every match, you'd have at least 3 or 4 mechs going straight to those locations.

If you actually read my post, my issue with the specific game design decisions that _force_ people into playing a certain style. My last point in the OP was that a VERY WIDE OPEN SLOPE that ANYONE CAN SEE AND GET TO, with absolutely NO COVER AT ALL, was removed from the map.

[Mackman]

Megachromulent, on 11 February 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

Because I define a sniper as something that _can't_ brawl, where a cataphract simply can. The fact that you choose weapons that have a minimum range does not change your mech chassis.


I listed the antenna on forest, the others simply a little higher (some the same height) And my OP is regarding PGI's intentions, based on the experiences playing for months, and they active changes. Not whether there are few "high" places that any mech can get to.


Which is a good natural nerf to "real" sniping, you argue against yourself...


This will get into semantics like so many other posts, my QUESTION IS:
Is "Pgi Against Different Playing Styles, Forcing Everyone To Play The Same?"


If you actually read my post, my issue with the specific game design decisions that _force_ people into playing a certain style. My last point in the OP was that a VERY WIDE OPEN SLOPE that ANYONE CAN SEE AND GET TO, with absolutely NO COVER AT ALL, was removed from the map.

Yeah, I know you asked a really weird question, the answer to which is an obvious "NO." Are you seriously saying that a 4-PPC Stalker is a viable "Brawler?" Just answer that one question, and if the answer is "Yes," then I can leave this thread knowing that I made the right decision not to argue with a crazy person. If you answer "No, the PPC Stalker is not a brawler," then congratulations! You've discovered that PGI isn't forcing everyone to play the same.

EDIT: Also, your insistence that the chassis determines whether something can be called a "brawler" or not is idiotic in a game where a mech can be outfitted with all kinds of weapons. By your definition, I guess since catapults can brawl, then a 6 LRM cat would be a brawler, too? Are you even reading the drivel that you're spewing?

Edited by Mackman, 11 February 2013 - 07:10 PM.

[Megacromulent]

Mackman, on 11 February 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

Yeah, I know you asked a really weird question, the answer to which is an obvious "NO." Are you seriously saying that a 4-PPC Stalker is a viable "Brawler?" Just answer that one question, and if the answer is "Yes," then I can leave this thread knowing that I made the right decision not to argue with a crazy person. If you answer "No, the PPC Stalker is not a brawler," then congratulations! You've discovered that PGI isn't forcing everyone to play the same.

Ah, the setup question, and only 2 choices... how about a 3rd option? The stalker can sit _immediately_ behind the hand-to-hand brawlers and fight. Does this make them a brawler or a sniper? Again, friggin semantics.

I have _actual_ evidence in my OP, which had NOTHING to do with specific mechs, weapons choices, but instead was based on "game play style". Just saying YES/NO without evidence makes for a flaccid argument.

Edited by Megachromulent, 11 February 2013 - 07:11 PM.

[Mackman]

Megachromulent, on 11 February 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

Ah, the setup question, and only 2 choices... how about a 3rd option? The stalker can sit _immediately_ behind the hand-to-hand brawlers and fight. Does this make them a brawler or a sniper? Again, friggin semantics.

I have _actual_ points in my OP, which had NOTHING to do with specific mechs, weapons choices etc.. AND, I layed out evidence that there is something amiss... just saying YES/NO without evidence makes for a flaccid argument.

There isn't anything amiss, dude, except your strange insistence that a "Sniper" is only what you say it is, and not what anyone else says it is. And even in the scenario you just imagined, isn't the Stalker playing differently than the Brawlers you seem to despise? And if so, doesn't that answer your question for you?

[Solis Obscuri]

PIP zoom never worked well. Ever.

As for maps and brawling vs. sniping... I find some room for both in most. The game doesn't favor allowing someone to act in a stationary position unmolested forever, but given that we're fighting in giant armored combat vehicles here, mobility really should be part of the equation. Blur at range works for a good sniper more than against, IMO - in most maps people won't notice you without thermal vision and full zoom at ranges past 700m if you sit still and don't silhouette yourself against the skyline.