147 replies to this topic

[HRR Insanity]

NRP, on 11 February 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Nerfing SRMs in order to deal with A1s is the wrong approach. Too many other mechs rely on SRMs, so nerfing missiles would adversely affect everyone. If the devs decide the A1 issue needs to be addressed, then nerfing the chassis is the only fair way.

Fixing one chassis won't fix the SplatStalker or any future version of a missile boat that can be converted to a SRM boat (Treb... etc).

The fair way is to modify SRM behavior to prevent summed damage.

Ripple fire (missiles come out of tubes in a pattern over ~0.5 sec rather than as a cluster) is the easiest way

[Vincent Lynch]

As long as the weapons have the same characteristics on all mechs, I do not see the problem.
Ok, the Cat-A1 can boat SRM.
But it can neither carry ballistics nor energy weapons.
It is not in any way better than any other Catapult chassis, or any Cataphract.
I had a Cat-A1, I mastered it, and after that I sold it, because it became boring. Not because of ECM, but because of the limited flexibility.
Also, the Cat-A1 has all hardpoints in the arms, which are easy to shoot off, and that's enough nerf.
No matter what I'm driving myself, I'd rather face a Cat-A1 as enemy than any other catapult, or any cataphract. Regardless of how it is armed.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

SRM's do need to be looked at. Arguably the best Centurion build is also a boat. 3 SRM 6's.

Stalkers are another mech that starts to get really scary when boating SRM's, especially when the pilot understands using cover on these stupidly small maps.

I think boating in general needs to be looked at. I mean look at the best mechs, it's always something like 3 Ultra AC 5's, 6 PPCs, 4 Large lasers, etc etc.

This game does not promote the build that has multiple weapon types for multiple ranges. IE 1 Ultra AC5, 1 LRM launcher, some medium lasers and maybe an SRM launcher.

[TheForce]

GioAvanti, on 11 February 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

I don't use ac10's I prefer lbx, but people think they are garbage till I kill them with it.

They are garbage compared to SRM6s. You know why? Group fire and pinpoint accuracy. I can group 2 SRM6+Artemis together and do 30 points of ALMOST concentrated damage for around the same weight as an LBX.

EDIT: I used to run an LBX and it was pretty good. But after switching to SRM's my BattleBoat is WAY more effective.

Edited by TheForce, 11 February 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[Iwaslost]

Am I a Catapult pilot? No.
Do I **** my pants when I see one? Hell no.
I just pop their ears off and laugh. Especially with my Centurion AL. 2 shots max from my dual ER PPCs to take those things off.

[TheForce]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 11 February 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

SRM's do need to be looked at. Arguably the best Centurion build is also a boat. 3 SRM 6's.

Stalkers are another mech that starts to get really scary when boating SRM's, especially when the pilot understands using cover on these stupidly small maps.

I think boating in general needs to be looked at. I mean look at the best mechs, it's always something like 3 Ultra AC 5's, 6 PPCs, 4 Large lasers, etc etc.

This game does not promote the build that has multiple weapon types for multiple ranges. IE 1 Ultra AC5, 1 LRM launcher, some medium lasers and maybe an SRM launcher.

GROUP FIRE AND PINPOINT ACCURACCY PROMOTES MINMAXBOATWARRIOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

QQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!#@#@@@@!!!!!!

[Vincent Lynch]

We don't need "multiple weapon types for multiple ranges" promoted!

The best builds are already those who carry either two or three different weapon types.
If someone wants to pilot an unflexible boat, just let them! But there should not be any punishments for people making their preferred builds!

Also, if you really think that boats are so awesome, then why the hell don't you just make one yourself, instead of ranting?

[Darknight99]

We should just remove the A1. I cant see any other use for that thing.. I personally feel that reducing its speed and twist will make it avoidable.

[TheForce]

Vincent Lynch, on 11 February 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Also, if you really think that boats are so awesome, then why the hell don't you just make one yourself, instead of ranting?

I rant because I am FORCED to make a boat to stay competitive and I want to play MechWarrior not MinmaxWarrior/BoatWarrior/Robot Jocks/World of Tanks with Legs.

HRR Insanity, on 11 February 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Fixing one chassis won't fix the SplatStalker or any future version of a missile boat that can be converted to a SRM boat (Treb... etc).

The fair way is to modify SRM behavior to prevent summed damage.

Ripple fire (missiles come out of tubes in a pattern over ~0.5 sec rather than as a cluster) is the easiest way

I wish I could stop ranting and make intelligent posts like this.

[Carnivoris]

Posts like this just make my Splatcat thirst for some kills.

[Mackman]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 11 February 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

SRM's do need to be looked at. Arguably the best Centurion build is also a boat. 3 SRM 6's.

Stalkers are another mech that starts to get really scary when boating SRM's, especially when the pilot understands using cover on these stupidly small maps.

I think boating in general needs to be looked at. I mean look at the best mechs, it's always something like 3 Ultra AC 5's, 6 PPCs, 4 Large lasers, etc etc.

This game does not promote the build that has multiple weapon types for multiple ranges. IE 1 Ultra AC5, 1 LRM launcher, some medium lasers and maybe an SRM launcher.

You're totally correct when you say that "this game" doesn't promote having multiple weapons for multiple ranges. And while it's your right to be unhappy about that, I'm pretty sure that at this point, the game isn't going to be changed to somehow "Bring it back" to where you want it to be.

Specialization has always been the way to go. It's the reason all soldiers don't carry a sniper rifle, an assault rifle, and a shotgun. In a team game like this, this holds true even more. A team of two mechs armed with one short-, medium-, and long-ranged weapon apiece will lose pretty horribly to a team of two where one specializes in long-range and the other in short-range.

"Boating" is reflective of an entirely different set of skills than a traditional build: controlling the engagement range, positioning relative to your team and to your enemies so as to retain maximum effectiveness, knowing how to break off from unfavorable engagements, etc. And as long as all of this remains possible (and there's no reason why it shouldn't), boating will remain an effective (and fun!) strategy.

[Sifright]

Vincent Lynch, on 11 February 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

We don't need "multiple weapon types for multiple ranges" promoted!

The best builds are already those who carry either two or three different weapon types.
If someone wants to pilot an unflexible boat, just let them! But there should not be any punishments for people making their preferred builds!

Also, if you really think that boats are so awesome, then why the hell don't you just make one yourself, instead of ranting?

I made SRM6 Cat boat build in november. Since then it's still the best mech build around. It was better than the streak Cat or would have been had the netcode not been bloody awful back then.

400k XP in my A1 it's way to powerful when i take any other mech i don't feel im helping the team like i should be.

my phract 4x which gets 500+ damage a round feels horribly under powered compared to my A1 and that thing has an effective range of 1k whilst doing 16DPS.

[Mackman]

TheForce, on 11 February 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

I rant because I am FORCED to make a boat to stay competitive and I want to play MechWarrior not MinmaxWarrior/BoatWarrior/Robot Jocks/World of Tanks with Legs.

Unfortunately, you don't get to decide what constitutes "MechWarrior." You don't get to determine what other people consider to be "MechWarrior." Ultimately, the Devs decide what MEchWarrior means, and they seem fairly happy with how things are playing out in terms of loadouts.

[Zeh]

TheForce, on 11 February 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

I rant because I am FORCED to make a boat to stay competitive and I want to play MechWarrior not MinmaxWarrior/BoatWarrior/Robot Jocks/World of Tanks with Legs.

It SOUNDS like you're wanting game-players to simulate the crappiness of the reality of military warfare, where supplies and replacements are at a premium, mechs are designed to fit a variety of roles, because it wouldn't make sense to change them between mission, and are usually built to be jacks-of-all-trades to a certain extent.

When all those harsh realities are removed, people do in-game exactly what real mechwarriors would do if they could. They make the best machine for the encounter.

Sorry, but I don't feel the min-maxing takes anything away from Mechwarrior other than limitations imposed through lack of access or lack of resources. Neither of which are fun.

[Braggart]

if we actually get some decent sized maps that dont promote brawling, I could see some balance,

but currently all the maps are designed where short range and cover is very available everywhere, allowing for at best medium range combat, which allows the splat to get in close relatively easy when used by a good pilot.

If we have 2 or 3 larger maps, that allowed for long range combat, we could see some serious changes to the splat. As they are as others said, a 1 trick pony, and they are taking a huge risk when they have a 50% chance of ending up map that totally negates their mech.

[Gallowglas]

Sorek, on 11 February 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

It's a matter of perception of course. You could say the problem is other weapons are too weak. However you put it these weapons outperform others. That is the real source of catapult complaints.

This is anecdotal evidence of course, but my number of kills I regularly get in an A1 or with 4+ SRM's in a Stalker is no greater than the kills I get in my 4 ML, AC/20 Cataphract. On average, I get between 2-4 kills per match in either. Yes, SRM boats are deadly up close, but that's their role. If you remove that, you remove their only strength. I think nerfing SRM's would be a mistake. I don't say that because I'm attached to using SRM's. I just think that people have a skewed perspective on their relative imbalance.

[Mackman]

Zeh, on 11 February 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

It SOUNDS like you're wanting game-players to simulate the crappiness of the reality of military warfare, where supplies and replacements are at a premium, mechs are designed to fit a variety of roles, because it wouldn't make sense to change them between mission, and are usually built to be jacks-of-all-trades to a certain extent.

When all those harsh realities are removed, people do in-game exactly what real mechwarriors would do if they could. They make the best machine for the encounter.

Sorry, but I don't feel the min-maxing takes anything away from Mechwarrior other than limitations imposed through lack of access or lack of resources. Neither of which are fun.

Exactly. This also means that there is the potential for "balanced" builds to come back into play if PGI makes all of that a part of Community Warfare somehow. People who complain about boats are complaining because the game itself is wrong in their eyes, and they want the limitations they impose on themselves to be imposed on everyone else.

[Zeh]

Braggart, on 11 February 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

if we actually get some decent sized maps that dont promote brawling, I could see some balance,

but currently all the maps are designed where short range and cover is very available everywhere, allowing for at best medium range combat, which allows the splat to get in close relatively easy when used by a good pilot.

If we have 2 or 3 larger maps, that allowed for long range combat, we could see some serious changes to the splat. As they are as others said, a 1 trick pony, and they are taking a huge risk when they have a 50% chance of ending up map that totally negates their mech.

I think people should be careful what they wish for. A map that allows for long range combat exists. Caustic Valley. I'd go as far as to say Caustic Valley favors long-range combat.

Unfortunately, what I think people are asking for is a map that FORCES long-range combat. And that will not be a very fun map.

[Braggart]

Mackman, on 11 February 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Exactly. This also means that there is the potential for "balanced" builds to come back into play if PGI makes all of that a part of Community Warfare somehow. People who complain about boats are complaining because the game itself is wrong in their eyes, and they want the limitations they impose on themselves to be imposed on everyone else.

or they want the limitations of the lore. We are designing mechs configs that were not available, and would be consider crap in TT and in lore.

Mostly because you cant take a random dice roll game and turn it into a real time game and keep the same damage values and heat etc.

SRMs should have their weight doubled in this. No doubt there.

[Zeh]

Braggart, on 11 February 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

SRMs should have their weight doubled in this. No doubt there.

False! I doubt. Plenty of doubt around here.