147 replies to this topic

[Braggart]

Zeh, on 11 February 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

I think people should be careful what they wish for. A map that allows for long range combat exists. Caustic Valley. I'd go as far as to say Caustic Valley favors long-range combat.

Unfortunately, what I think people are asking for is a map that FORCES long-range combat. And that will not be a very fun map.

Caustic favors medium long, combat still takes place in range for medium lasters to hit targets, the 540 M range. Now if combat was taking place at the 700+, we would see changes in builds, which would provide a mix of long range firepower and medium, with some short for extreme damages.

Perhaps they just need to change the range of all weapons to be somewhat shorter. that would be nearly the same as making a map larger.

[HRR Insanity]

Mackman, on 11 February 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Exactly. This also means that there is the potential for "balanced" builds to come back into play if PGI makes all of that a part of Community Warfare somehow. People who complain about boats are complaining because the game itself is wrong in their eyes, and they want the limitations they impose on themselves to be imposed on everyone else.

Err... no. I play min-maxed boats just like everyone else who wants to win. It's the right thing to do in the current environment.

That doesn't mean we can't imagine or promote a future environment that is different and eliminates combined weapon damage (which is what causes almost all of the weapon/armor/damage/hardpoint/'Mech balance issues in the game).

[Leimrey]

True, srms need to be fixed so that their damage no longer disappears into the ether on many occasions. The effect of Artemis on srms also needs to be enhanced since it is pretty much negligible now due to the tendency of srms to converge on their target, when aimed directly (without leading the target). Good thing that both of these fixes have been confirmed (by Thomas, IIRC) and are coming in the future. As for the cat, I've already posted how to balance it in one of my previous posts in the appropriate thread.

[Braggart]

Zeh, on 11 February 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

False! I doubt. Plenty of doubt around here.

15 damage for a weapon that only requires 3 weight, and is hard to destroy from crits, has a pretty low heat value also. No other weapon really compares in terms of damage/weight/heat are all figured.

you can say well its short range. Yes plenty of weapons are short range, and most of the game is played at short range because of the maps.

[Zeh]

HRR Insanity, on 11 February 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Err... no. I play min-maxed boats just like everyone else who wants to win. It's the right thing to do in the current environment.

That doesn't mean we can't imagine or promote a future environment that is different and eliminates combined weapon damage (which is what causes almost all of the weapon/armor/damage/hardpoint/'Mech balance issues in the game).

Yes yes Insanity, I've read your dissertation on multiple weapons converging together. I think it's a great idea if one's goal is to make the shooter as close to TT as possible.

I just am not sure that would be any more fun.. I can't imagine it would be intuitive to most people. I think sticking with the accuracy that exists and working with it is a better idea overall.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

HRR Insanity, on 11 February 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Fixing one chassis won't fix the SplatStalker or any future version of a missile boat that can be converted to a SRM boat (Treb... etc).

The fair way is to modify SRM behavior to prevent summed damage.

Ripple fire (missiles come out of tubes in a pattern over ~0.5 sec rather than as a cluster) is the easiest way

isnt this already the way it works? they only come out in clusters based on the number of tubes? or did this change? or do you mean something different?

[Zeh]

Braggart, on 11 February 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

15 damage for a weapon that only requires 3 weight, and is hard to destroy from crits, has a pretty low heat value also. No other weapon really compares in terms of damage/weight/heat are all figured.

you can say well its short range. Yes plenty of weapons are short range, and most of the game is played at short range because of the maps.

Change "15 damage" to "15 damage around the vicinity the weapon is fired" and your description is more accurate. Because while at point blank it will do 10-15 damage to a component. At normal ranges, only about 10 of the damage will hit the mech, and spread all over willy-nilly.

[Braggart]

Redmond Spiderhammer, on 11 February 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

isnt this already the way it works? they only come out in clusters based on the number of tubes? or did this change? or do you mean something different?

Srms are single volley, Lrms are multiple volleys based on size.

[Braggart]

Zeh, on 11 February 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Change "15 damage" to "15 damage around the vicinity the weapon is fired" and your description is more accurate. Because while at point blank it will do 10-15 damage to a component. At normal ranges, only about 10 of the damage will hit the mech, and spread all over willy-nilly.

Ill change it when we dont have mechs loaded with 6 of them firing them all at the same time. now that 10 damage you stated is enough to core a Medium mech.

[Mackman]

HRR Insanity, on 11 February 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Err... no. I play min-maxed boats just like everyone else who wants to win. It's the right thing to do in the current environment.

That doesn't mean we can't imagine or promote a future environment that is different and eliminates combined weapon damage (which is what causes almost all of the weapon/armor/damage/hardpoint/'Mech balance issues in the game).

It's what causes your perception of widespread imbalance, which, again, could just be your belief that "This wouldn't work in the TT, so the fact that it works here means it's imbalanced."

The more that a game allows for player skill (as opposed to random chance) to influence the outcome, the more you can expect to see players building for the greatest effectiveness to complement their skill. That's just how it's always going to work. The only way to discourage boating (aside from something drastic like simply increasing the weights of all weapons) would be to implement something that takes away from player skill and swings it back to dumb luck (cone of fire, lack of precision, etc).

Needless to say, the vast majority of players would hate such a reversion. And doing something else, like increasing heat for same-type weapons fired at the same time from the same location, would just encourage a slight .5 second delay. It would barely effect the efficacy of the build at all. And after that nerf would fail, people like you would just begin calling for another, stronger one.

[Braggart]

Mackman, on 11 February 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

It's what causes your perception of widespread imbalance, which, again, could just be your belief that "This wouldn't work in the TT, so the fact that it works here means it's imbalanced."

The more that a game allows for player skill (as opposed to random chance) to influence the outcome, the more you can expect to see players building for the greatest effectiveness to complement their skill. That's just how it's always going to work. The only way to discourage boating (aside from something drastic like simply increasing the weights of all weapons) would be to implement something that takes away from player skill and swings it back to dumb luck (cone of fire, lack of precision, etc).

Needless to say, the vast majority of players would hate such a reversion. And doing something else, like increasing heat for same-type weapons fired at the same time from the same location, would just encourage a slight .5 second delay. It would barely effect the efficacy of the build at all. And after that nerf would fail, people like you would just begin calling for another, stronger one.

Nah, just a better balance, which can be achieved by adjusted damages, weights, or heat, along with accuracy of said weapon and such.

Balance has not been achieved, esp when damage and other values were taken from TT. Which does not translate to Realtime.

[FerretGR]

Sorek, on 11 February 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

It's a matter of perception of course. You could say the problem is other weapons are too weak. However you put it these weapons outperform others. That is the real source of catapult complaints.

No, the real source of Catapult complaints are people who insist on getting into knife-fighting range with a motherf*ckin ninja who has very sharp swords.

You don't nerf the ninja, you shoot him from out of sword range.

Not a ninja, but relevant:

Edited by FerretGR, 11 February 2013 - 10:04 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I don't feel like people running into eachother at 100 meters and alphaing repeatedly is a tactic, or a strategy or whatever you want to call it.

I'm not saying that there is no skill involved, but to say that this game has any major strategy involved is a stretch at this point.

I read a lot of these 8 man bragging threads, and I've never read one where I was like "Damn, that guy must be in the army or something to pull that off".

And I understand the need to min/max from players. I've played MMO's a long time. It's no different than Everquest requiring warrior tanks with defensive stance and clerics with complete heal chains.

But to say that's "fun"...I don't know. I think variety and intrigue are more fun than the known quantity.

When we get to where there are far and away "bests", it really hurts the game. Which is why I think boating needs to be looked at.

It also invalidates a lot of mechs, which the developers put a lot of time into making. Thus wasting resources.

[Kryuus]

Honestly, my problem with the catapult isn't its hardpoints or its ability to boat. It's that balance-wise it gives up almost nothing to get all those things.

Its torso hitboxes allow it to fix a max engine XL with a high degree of safety, which when combined with its unparalleled turning radius means that it is a mech that cannot be outmaneuvered to any degree of success, while still going 80KPH+ so it is hard to get out of range for the vast majority of mechs.

I don't even mind the raw KPH speed, I do mind the turn speed and the turning radius on what has always been a second-line support fire mech.

Compare that to the stalker which has a terrible turning radius and speed capability. It can bring even more deadly loadouts in the sub 270m category but complaints about their power are vastly less. Because faster mechs (not even lights, just 65ish+) can maneuver to evade the first shot and disengage. Or they can get behind the stalker and shoot it where it cannot strike back.

EDIT: To sum, A1 Boating isn't 'the' problem, its being able to alpha for 90, THEN pack all the ammo you could need, be heat efficient, and move like a fast medium that's the problem.

Edited by Kryuus, 11 February 2013 - 10:22 AM.

[Darknight99]

Kryuus, on 11 February 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

Honestly, my problem with the catapult isn't its hardpoints or its ability to boat. It's that balance-wise it gives up almost nothing to get all those things.

Its torso hitboxes allow it to fix a max engine XL with a high degree of safety, which when combined with its unparalleled turning radius means that it is a mech that cannot be outmaneuvered to any degree of success, while still going 80KPH+ so it is hard to get out of range for the vast majority of mechs.

I don't even mind the raw KPH speed, I do mind the turn speed and the turning radius on what has always been a second-line support fire mech.

Compare that to the stalker which has a terrible turning radius and speed capability. It can bring even more deadly loadouts in the sub 270m category but complaints about their power are vastly less. Because faster mechs (not even lights, just 65ish+) can maneuver to evade the first shot and disengage. Or they can get behind the stalker and shoot it where it cannot strike back.

EDIT: To sum, A1 Boating isn't 'the' problem, its being able to alpha for 90, THEN pack all the ammo you could need, be heat efficient, and move like a fast medium that's the problem.

I'm in a C1
Some of us use those abilities you speak of to get away from lights.. I was just In a match where I had lights trying to circle me and the only thing that stopped them from ripping me apart fromt he rear was the twist. My speed Allows me to get out of danger should an entire pack come looking for me because frankly thats what happens. We can be evaded just like anything else but we also need the ability to evade.. Ever tried to escape a dragon? Those things come at you so fast its hard to escape.

And your comment about the stalker is why i switched to the catapult.



On another note someone in our pug called out a A splat cat and we all focused on it before It got remotely dangerous. "thanks for calling that out whoever you were".

Edited by Darknight99, 11 February 2013 - 10:27 AM.

[Natasha Kerensky]

SRMs should be 2 damage a missile not 2.5.

Lets beginning with that fix.

[jay35]

Roughneck45, on 11 February 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Who said something was wrong with any of that stuff?

Cats are boats. Deal with them accordingly. No nerfs needed.

Precisely. Just because some weapons work doesn't mean they need to be neutered into worthlessness.

[jay35]

GODzillaGSPB, on 11 February 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

You can either balance weapons on their own, or towards not encouraging boating.

Boating is the "feature" that needs changes.

No, it doesn't. It's a legitimate and classic feature of MechWarrior and Battletech. Learn to evolve your playstyle to counter it. Hint: It's possible to beat any boat.

Edited by jay35, 11 February 2013 - 10:42 AM.

[TheForce]

Mackman, on 11 February 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

It's what causes your perception of widespread imbalance, which, again, could just be your belief that "This wouldn't work in the TT, so the fact that it works here means it's imbalanced."

The perception that Mechwarrior should be defined by a video game from the 90s that was implemented poorly is wrong.

Imagine if MW2 dealt with group fire and pinpoint accuracy properly...what would the perception be today?

[Kryuus]

Darknight99, on 11 February 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

I'm in a C1
Some of us use those abilities you speak of to get away from lights.. I was just In a match where I had lights trying to circle me and the only thing that stopped them from ripping me apart fromt he rear was the twist. My speed Allows me to get out of danger should an entire pack come looking for me because frankly thats what happens. We can be evaded just like anything else but we also need the ability to evade.. Ever tried to escape a dragon? Those things come at you so fast its hard to escape.

And your comment about the stalker is why i switched to the catapult.

Ah, but those lights and dragon's you speak of pay for their mobility in their ability to carry weaponry, and in the lights case their durability if they are struck. My (uneducated) guess is that the catapult was designed around utilizing LRMs and Long range weapons which are traditionally heavy and weak in close range, so they were given maneuverability in return so they wouldn't be destroyed by mechs that could close. But unintended consequence of hardpoint flexibility is that these traits can be repurposed into close range mechs, where it becomes problematic for a mech carrying that much close range firepower to have.