55 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

focuspark, on 11 February 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

Either that or the devs know something that we do not; such as changes to ECM in the pipes or a proper set of counters to ECM, etc.

It isn't THAT that bothers me, it is the use of the term 'never' when developing a game.

[focuspark]

Hotthedd, on 11 February 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

It isn't THAT that bothers me, it is the use of the term 'never' when developing a game.

Fair enough, and agreed. Speaking in absolutes is never a good idea :-p but seriously, yeah it's bad form.

[General Taskeen]

The simple change is that ECM shouldn't prevent locks period. Its not supposed to. I don't see what's so hard about that. In games like MW:LL all it does it make locks harder and prevent you from getting Mech information, but you can still lock.

[MasterBLB]

I've discussed ECM case with my friend Spectre999.The conclusion is,yes ECM is OP,but there is one thing it did well - it ended uncontrollable LRM rains.
Before ECM,as we recall practically everyone had LRMs,which made traveling deadly risky.Now,especially after TAG improvement we still see LRM boats,but not only them.

So,though I'm against ECM I can see the point of view of the developers,I bet the reason we still get no exact info is they are thinking carefully how to repair ECM overpower without bringing LRM rains back to the game.And remember,there is LRM Artemis buff incoming soon.

[BigJim]

Codejack, on 11 February 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Well, given that capping the speed didn't work and they don't seem to be able to fix the netcode, what do you suggest?

Aim. That's what I'd suggest.
Lights are perfectly hittable now, even with Euro-ping, even for Euros vs Euros, where the ping is worse.

But why bother trying to hit them, when there is a weapon that can be spammed constantly, that puts out as much damage as a medium, and takes all the risk out of aiming?


The reason ECM is so massively massively important is because it's an enabler or denier of Streaks, and those are way, way powerful vs Lights at the moment, because they do double-damage and are more manoeuvrable than they were in Closed beta.

Streaks are just so easy to use, do so much damage, automatically hit even if you're not looking at the enemy, fire out of the back and sides of your mech regardless of your position, and can be spammed to such a degree that no amount of regular weapons can begin to compare in a Light battle.

Given all those facts, are you even remotely surprised that the ECM/Streak combo is what makes a Light mech viable?
Do you not see that even considering taking a Light into the game without that combo is just asking to be a free kill for the first Light you come across?
Streaks to kill, ECM to make sure you can fire them.


Back in the golden days of Closed, Lights killed Lights all the time, the game wasn't broken and people who now ***** about lagshield were posting "zomg I'm still pending" threads, instead of bitching about lagshield.

I'm one of our unit's Light pilots, I've played lights for 99% of my nearly 4k matches since Open, and did so all the way through closed, and have seen all the changes come & go.

Trust me, lights did fine against each other before there was a raven, before there was ECM, and before Streaks were so over-powerful that no-one would think of taking anything else.

Do I take take streaks all the time in my Raven now? Damn right I do. Have I played my Jenner since ECM came in? Only to troll, never seriously.

Any Light mech right now is a joke-mech if it doesn't have Streaks, and the ECM to ensure it can use them - In other words, it's a joke if it's not a Raven 3L.

Back then the Jenner-F was king, you had to actually aim at the enemy Light, and so out of the two Lights available, (Commie and Jenn), the Jenn was better.

Now we have 4x Lighs (Jenn, Commie, Spid and Raven), and a strong case can be made for running any of those mechs, if it just wasn't the pesky fact that they're all a joke if they don't carry god-missiles.

So if Streaks went the way of the dodo tomorrow, ECM would simply not be an issue for Scouts, because you'd still be using aim in order to kill your opponent.
Ergo, it's the Streaks that are the issue when it comes to Light mechs, not the ECM, because the ECM is only important as the streak-nabler.

Considering that 4x of the 5 ECM capable mechs are scouts (Spid, Rav, Commie, 3M), that's by far the majority of the ECM in the game covered.

focuspark, on 11 February 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

This. The simple fact that the OP is saying "ECM is OK so long as each team has the same amount" but isn't complaining about any other piece of equipment tells me that ECM is unbalanced.

You could make the same argument but switch the word "tonnage", or "firepower" in-place of "ECM", and it would be just as valid, so while I might not agree with the OP all the way, ECM is not imbalanced in and of itself.

Edited by BigJim, 11 February 2013 - 06:35 PM.

[Headlessnewt]

ECM needs to be made an alternative rather than a necessity. Right now if you are piloting a mech that can carry ECM and you don't carry ECM, you are completely out of your mind. ECM is not a good choice, it is the ONLY choice.

This is not a balanced state of affairs.

If ECM were available on every mech, would there be any mechs that did not take it? I don't think so, or if they did it would be only because they knew that everyone else was going to take it so they'd be covered.

What if it were only every light mech? No,everyone would still take it.

Personally, the only reason I don't have any ECM-capable mechs is because I only learned about it recently and haven't had time to get one.

For the record, I don't think ECM's effects are too powerful, I think they're too general. The defensive advantage of preventing you from targeting anyone shielded is massive and is universally fantastic. I also think that it's the part of ECM that needs to be removed.

I like the other effects: the Comm lockout is an awesome mechanic, even canceling missile locks are fine with me, I'd even be okay with not receiving detailed sensor readings on ECM-protected targets so long as I could get a nice little red bracket around my targets so that I know they're enemies and not friendlies.

Anyway, disagree with OP: do fix ECM. Make it an interesting choice rather than the only choice. I personally think that it shouldn't be model-limited or chassis-limited (currently it is the ONLY piece of gear that isn't generally available, outside of hardpoint restrictions), but I'd let that go for intelligent balancing.

Edited by Headlessnewt, 11 February 2013 - 07:18 PM.

[Codejack]

BigJim, on 11 February 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Aim. That's what I'd suggest.

Netcode Lag.

BigJim, on 11 February 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Lights are perfectly hittable now, even with Euro-ping, even for Euros vs Euros, where the ping is worse.

Netcode lag has nothing to do with ping.

BigJim, on 11 February 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

But why bother trying to hit them, when there is a weapon that can be spammed constantly, that puts out as much damage as a medium, and takes all the risk out of aiming?

Ah, so you either don't play the game or are flat out lying to try to prove your point.

BigJim, on 11 February 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

The reason ECM is so massively massively important is because it's an enabler or denier of Streaks, and those are way, way powerful vs Lights at the moment, because they do double-damage and are more manoeuvrable than they were in Closed beta.

Dude, I was in CB; streaks have not changed significantly. They do not do "double damage," (25% higher, at best) and are the only things that can reliably hit fast lights.

BigJim, on 11 February 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Streaks are just so easy to use, do so much damage, automatically hit even if you're not looking at the enemy, fire out of the back and sides of your mech regardless of your position, and can be spammed to such a degree that no amount of regular weapons can begin to compare in a Light battle.

You are out of your mind; or lying, again. If nothing else, SRM6s do, well, 3 times the damage. You go try to take out a heavy or assault mech with nothing but streaks. The only reason they are so powerful on Ravens and Commandos is that you can't shoot back.

BigJim, on 11 February 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Given all those facts, are you even remotely surprised that the ECM/Streak combo is what makes a Light mech viable?

ECM. Lagshield. The streaks are at least 3rd on that list.

BigJim, on 11 February 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Do you not see that even considering taking a Light into the game without that combo is just asking to be a free kill for the first Light you come across?

Only because the other light will have it!

BigJim, on 11 February 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Streaks to kill, ECM to make sure you can fire them.

Right, but the streaks aren't the problem in that equation.

BigJim, on 11 February 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Back in the golden days of Closed, Lights killed Lights all the time, the game wasn't broken-

I'm just going to stop there and laugh for the rest of the post.

[BigJim]

Quote

Netcode Lag.

..is a thing, but not really an issue since the 22nd Jan patch.

Quote

Netcode lag has nothing to do with ping.

..to an extent, but if you don't appreciate that since the game began Light v Light battles between Euros was harder due to the longer lag-shooting distances then you're just being deliberately obtuse.
It is demonstrably better now that it was both in CB, and in open (not hard to be better that it was in open).

Quote

Ah, so you either don't play the game or are flat out lying to try to prove your point.

2,788 / 951
Wins / Losses
No I don't play the game.

As to lying, what bit isn't true?
That a streak can be consta-spammed? That it does 5 dmg? That it doesn't rely on aim?

Quote

Dude, I was in CB; streaks have not changed significantly. They do not do "double damage," (25% higher, at best) and are the only things that can reliably hit fast lights.

Yes, they have.
1) The devs stated they fixed a "bug" whereby streaks were only doing half damage. If they are now doing full damage, that's a full 100% damage increase, or in other words "double-damage". Numbers - bah.

2) *I* can reliably hit fast Lights. And I'm far from the best pilot out there. The only problem is, you can't hit them fast enough enough with regular weapons to compete with auto-aim weapons that can fire a constant stream, unless you have an aimbot running, and even then, positioning, recycle time and burn-time will give the streak-user the advantage.

3) As to the manuverability, there is a reason why the best Jenner pilots used the F, and didn't use the D with streaks.
If you moved just right, you could out-turn a streak missile, as it's couldn't do instant 90-degree course corrections.
They didn't fire out of your mechs' armpit as you circled round him, or out of your back if he jumped over you.
Now they can. If that's not a significant change to a homing missile, then there is no such thing in the world.

Quote

You are out of your mind; or lying, again. If nothing else, SRM6s do, well, 3 times the damage. You go try to take out a heavy or assault mech with nothing but streaks. The only reason they are so powerful on Ravens and Commandos is that you can't shoot back.

Note I said "no amount of regular weapons can begin to compare in a Light battle."
A Light battle is a Light vs another Light.
I'd suggest you make a point of understanding what a person is saying before you tell them they're lying, as it comes across as being really rude.

And if you're taking 6's on a Light, then you're going to die to the first half-awake enemy Light you come across.

Quote

ECM. Lagshield. The streaks are at least 3rd on that list.

You say potato, I say "no, they're not".
ECM gives you nothing of real worth other than the ability to use Streaks (see below).

Quote

Only because the other light will have it!

And if the other Light doesn't have streaks (because they either don't exists or because other weapons are allowed to have a reason to exist) then it doesn't matter if the other Light has it, ECM becomes just another tactical option.

Quote

Right, but the streaks aren't the problem in that equation.

Consider, the underlying factor is the streaks.
If the streaks didn't exist, why take ECM?

* Protection from LRMs?
- Nah, LRMs haven't been a threat to decent scout pilots ever, not counting that one weird 3-day period where artemis missiles went crazy.
* A significant advantage from enemies not being able to pinpoint your damaged areas on the paper doll?
- Not likely, you always go for the legs if you can' and snap-shoot for centre-mass if you only get a brief shot. Seeing a crit side torso won't change that.
* Stealth?
- Woah, that's exactly what ECM is meant to do - It's meant to allow a scout to actually do some scouting without a massive red triangle above his head, and survive for more than a couple of seconds against the barrage of guass and direct-fire that will inevitably follow.

Those 3x things (one of which is desirable) are the only practical implications of a light mech taking ECM, not counting my point about it being the great Streak-nabler.
All arguments for a Light taking ECM always come around full-circle back to Streak missiles, because none of the other factors are a problem for the light pilot, or provide him with any major advantage vs the other players (in mediums, heavies and assaults).



All of those other factors pale into insignificance against the monster which are Streak missiles.
As I said previously, I've run Lights constantly since June last year, and I can assure you, if it were not for the behaviour of Streaks, I would be running any mech other than the Raven - I am NOT a fan of the horrible little wombly rat-faced thing.

I can happily 1v1 with any non-streak Light in the game, with a Cicada of your choice, or any other Light mech, and the result comes down to pilot skill.
But like any arms-race, as soon as one side has streaks the other side needs it to even hope to compete.
And if on-top of that, one side has this ECM that can stop me using my streaks, then I need it for sure, to counter.

But the first step on that road, the first figure in the equation, was the streak, not the ECM.

Quote

I'm just going to stop there and laugh for the rest of the post.

Feel free mate; I'm not getting paid to try and change your personal opinion here, I'm doing this as a public service.

Edited by BigJim, 12 February 2013 - 02:24 AM.

[blinkin]

@Codejack
the orange founders tag means that BigJim has spent at least $60 on this game to get into the closed beta. i'm gonna guess with that sort of investment he has played at least some. i would also bet that he plays the game more than you do because you spend all of your time talking about how this game represents everything that is wrong with our universe and saying that the developers need to all be burned at the stake. BigJim seems to be somewhat interested in this game succeeding, you... not so much.

@BigJim
Codejack is a lost cause. i strongly recomend against investing very much time and energy trying to beat the ignorance out of him. he would sooner die than embrace reason.

Edited by blinkin, 12 February 2013 - 02:47 AM.

[BigJim]

@Blink; Those things you say about me are true (that I sincerely want the game to succeed), and that I play an awful lot (I'm in a competitive unit and we aim to be one of the top-tier units in the game, so that means a lot of pugging to work on personal skills, and even more 8-man practice sessions using RHoD drop-decs (2/2/2/2, 3/3/0/2, etc..).

However, in the spirit of fairness, I wouldn't want to be in a game, where just because I'm a founder and some other guy isn't my opinion is magically seen as more "valid", and to be fair to you, I'm sure you don't see it that way either.

[Damocles 1]

BAP should be able to counter ECM, for the time-being its completely useless

[Codejack]

BigJim, on 12 February 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

..is a thing, but not really an issue since the 22nd Jan patch.

Sorry, I actually play the game, when I can, so don't feed me that BS.

BigJim, on 12 February 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

..to an extent, but if you don't appreciate that since the game began Light v Light battles between Euros was harder due to the longer lag-shooting distances then you're just being deliberately obtuse.
It is demonstrably better now that it was both in CB, and in open (not hard to be better that it was in open).

Again, I was in CB; you didn't have half of premades all running the same 2 mechs, and at least guided weapons worked when direct-fire weapons didn't.

BigJim, on 12 February 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

2,788 / 951
Wins / Losses
No I don't play the game.

Then are you just lying about what is going on? I see lagshield every day, if not in every round, and my lights are just as hard to hit as ever.

BigJim, on 12 February 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

As to lying, what bit isn't true?
That a streak can be consta-spammed? That it does DOUBLE dmg? That it doesn't rely on aim?

Yes, those things are all false; you cannot spam them if you cannot keep lock, and it take a real ***** to let you get into range without any cover or support; they do not do double damage, since they doubled armor, it is only ~25% higher; you have to keep the reticule on the enemy for 2 seconds to get a lock, that requires MORE aiming than other weapons.

BigJim, on 12 February 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

Yes, they have.
1) The devs stated they fixed a "bug" whereby streaks were only doing half damage. If they are now doing full damage, that's a full 100% damage increase, or in other words "double-damage". Numbers - bah.

Oh, so you are using a bug as baseline? Any other BS you want to shovel my way?

BigJim, on 12 February 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

2) *I* can reliably hit fast Lights. And I'm far from the best pilot out there. The only problem is, you can't hit them fast enough enough with regular weapons to compete with auto-aim weapons that can fire a constant stream, unless you have an aimbot running, and even then, positioning, recycle time and burn-time will give the streak-user the advantage.

Good for you; then even you admit that it's not enough! You do understand that if you could shoot back with streaks, it wouldn't matter, right?

BigJim, on 12 February 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

3) As to the manuverability, there is a reason why the best Jenner pilots used the F, and didn't use the D with streaks.
If you moved just right, you could out-turn a streak missile, as it's couldn't do instant 90-degree course corrections.
They didn't fire out of your mechs' armpit as you circled round him, or out of your back if he jumped over you.
Now they can. If that's not a significant change to a homing missile, then there is no such thing in the world.

So, they fixed the fact that one mech was UN-HITTABLE, and you are claiming that it has overpowered the weapon that didn't used to be able to hit at all?!

Significant change to what? Your love of piloting invincible mechs?

BigJim, on 12 February 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

Note I said "no amount of regular weapons can begin to compare in a Light battle."
A Light battle is a Light vs another Light.
I'd suggest you make a point of understanding what a person is saying before you tell them they're lying, as it comes across as being really rude.

And you are feeding me nonsense interspersed with ridiculously contorted logic; every argument you make is just suggesting that ECM is the problem, not streaks!

BigJim, on 12 February 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

And if you're taking 6's on a Light, then you're going to die to the first half-awake enemy Light you come across.

I thought you said you were a good pilot?

BigJim, on 12 February 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

You say potato, I say "no, they're not".
ECM gives you nothing of real worth other than the ability to use Streaks (see below).

OK, I'm going to stop here because you are just pulling this out of your *** now. Yes, the ability to use streaks is the major advantage of carrying ECM.... WHICH WOULDN'T BE NECESSARY IF ECM WEREN'T SH!TBALLS OVERPOWERED TO BEGIN WITH!




Look, you are obviously in love with your little God-mode toy. Enjoy it while you can because either it goes or the game will die, so you won't have it for long.

[Corvus Antaka]

If ECM remains the only counter to ECM and BAP is not added as a better counter then ECM needs to be factored into matchmaking, otherwise you get the inevitable no ECM team of fail.

[BigJim]

@Code; I'm sure most of those arguments you put forward made sense when you were typing them, but look back over the post objectively, it just doesn't make sense, and most of those one-liners just come across as a rant bud.

Most people who come along after this (if not put off by the semi-flaming) will, I hope, be able to see the difference between the line of reasoning I'm putting forward and the.. less than civil and rational post above, which is fine, I'm not on this forum to argue with you specifically.

Codejack, on 12 February 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

Yes, the ability to use streaks is the major advantage of carrying ECM.... WHICH WOULDN'T BE NECESSARY IF ECM WEREN'T SH!TBALLS OVERPOWERED TO BEGIN WITH!

You're going round in circles here - You say being able to use streaks is the major reason to take ECM, and then go on to say streaks wouldn't be needed if ECM wasn't so shitballs OP.

I'll take a risk here, by asking one question - If what you say is correct, what is so shitballs overpowering about ECM?
In other words; If ECM is the root cause, then what is it's problem? What makes it so OP?


You see what I mean? If ECM is both OP (which I dispute) and the major reason to take it is to use streaks (where I agree), then, if you removed Streaks, there would be little to no reason to take ECM.

If ECM were genuinely OP, there would be other reasons to take it, other than to use your Streaks.
So, what are they?

Edited by BigJim, 12 February 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Hotthedd, on 11 February 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Could you direct me to the post where the Devs have ruled that out?

I have not seen it. If that is the case, I am disappointed. It tells me that they refuse to acknowledge when things are unbalanced to the point that many games are predetermined.

It's in Ask the Devs 31 answers.

[StalaggtIKE]

BigJim, on 12 February 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

If ECM were genuinely OP, there would be other reasons to take it, other than to use your Streaks.
So, what are they?

It does a lot more than block LRM/SSRM. Here is a list of things ECM does:

• stealth all allies within 180m radius, up to 200m (blocks guided missiles, damage report and weapon load-out)
  
• distorts radar of enemies within 180m radius; hides allies and enemies not within los, on minimap
  
• blocks sharing of target data of enemies within 180m radius; this also includes TAG
  
• negates all bonuses from BAP, Artemis and NARC
  
• increases lock-on time for guided missiles

The first item alone, makes ECM worth taking. It essentially gives you more armor, because it can potentially hide the fact that one of your arms are about to fall off. It also hides your weapon load-out, so they don't know you're packing 3 SRM6 until you hit them with it. Or that your UAC5 is jammed. Plus this is provided for your whole team, provided they stay within your umbrella.

[Roughneck45]

BigJim wins by a landslide.

Logic > ranting/insults/idiotic statements/ALL CAPS

Might want to remember that for the future Codejack.

Codejack, on 11 February 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Well, given that capping the speed didn't work and they don't seem to be able to fix the netcode, what do you suggest?

Making AMS better against streaks.

Lights without ECM access can spend the same tonnage to greatly nullify the streak damage they take.

Edited by Roughneck45, 12 February 2013 - 09:50 AM.

[BigJim]

StalaggtIKE, on 12 February 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

It does a lot more than block LRM/SSRM. Here is a list of things ECM does:

• 1 stealth all allies within 180m radius, up to 200m (blocks guided missiles, damage report and weapon load-out)
  
• 2 distorts radar of enemies within 180m radius; hides allies and enemies not within los, on minimap
  
• 3 blocks sharing of target data of enemies within 180m radius; this also includes TAG
  
• 4 negates all bonuses from BAP, Artemis and NARC
  
• 5 increases lock-on time for guided missiles

[numbering mine, for ease of reference]

Indeed, and for scouts, those are negligible bonuses - hardly OP. Worth 1.5 tonnes? I'm easy on that - I could happily see ECM cost like, 1.t on a commando, 1.5 on a spider, 2 on a Raven, 2.5 on a 3M, and say, 5 or 6 tonnes on a DDC; That would be fine, but even as it is, it's still not over-powered.

Anyway, back to scouts, which is my focus in this thread.

1) Guided missiles - We mean LRMs here, as streaks will be carried by enemy Ravens, countering ECM, the point of my post.
LRMs have never been a major threat to any scout worthy of the name.
Been covered so many times on these boards I hope you'll forgive me for not spending much time on this point (not being flippant, just aware of not trying to spam a massive thread )

Second point - if a scout is walking at a measly 50-80 kph with his team, using his umbrella to "hide" them, then you have nothing to complain about.
They've taken one of their greatest assets off the board, wasting him utterly.
They've made him an easy target for gauss or direct-fire, and they've given your scouts complete map-control.

if the enemy do something as foolish as this, your team should be jumping for joy, not saying ECM is op.


2) A scout spending more than a few seconds within radar range of enemies is a bad scout, unless he's playing tactically, and using it by hiding close behind enemy lines as a disruption technique while his team flanks or manoeuvres in some other way - Which I feel is an utterly admirable use of ECM, and this kind of tactical play should be encouraged.

Doing that is a massive risk for the scout, but might help the larger battle, so I'm all for it - it's a good mechanic if used in that way.
Where it gets messy is where gangs of DDCs are all in a clump and nobody on any team has any control, that's just a button-mashing clusterf**k.

Under normal circumstances though, a scout using his ECM at such close range will be focussed to death in a couple of seconds, so having your radar blocked for those few secs is hardly going to ruin your game.

I'll tell you what I do, and all the good scouts I know do, and that's to switch our ECM to "counter" before we get behind enemy lines, because those low-signal bars tells the enemy you're close.
If this effect was so OP, we wouldn't switch it off, we'd be milking it for all it's worth.

3) As above - A scout trying to use this will get splatted, quickly. Bad scout pilot gets himself killed by thinking ECM stops bullets.

4) That's some hold over from TT rules which doesn't really interest me tbh - That effect could be scrapped and I don't think anyone would notice if it wasn't in the patch notes.

Who takes BAP anyway? Artemis is really only useful on A-1s or LRM boats with LoS, and if a Light is harassing your LRM boats (one of their primary jobs, I might add) then he's doing his job right.
Again, hardly OP, nor a reason for such vehement hatred as you see on these forums among some.

5) Again, no big deal. Against Streaks (enemy scouts) this cuts both ways, as Light battles are just slap-fights with streaks now, and both parties do the exact same thing, at the exact same time, every time.
As to LRMs, see point #1. The scout shouldn't be getting hit by LRMs anyway, so no great loss.

Quote

The first item alone, makes ECM worth taking. It essentially gives you more armor, because it can potentially hide the fact that one of your arms are about to fall off. It also hides your weapon load-out, so they don't know you're packing 3 SRM6 until you hit them with it. Or that your UAC5 is jammed. Plus this is provided for your whole team, provided they stay within your umbrella.

Only in DDCs, which is of no interest to me - as I've made clear in this thread already, of the 5x mechs in the game that can take ECM, 4x of them are scouts.
That leaves only one-fifth of the ECM mechs out there that have the effect you're talking about.

I now of several units that have moved away from DDCs to RS's and other variants, because while the effect you're talking about is nice, it's not as good as having a better regular loadout than your enemy.

Again, I'll say - most of the hatred comes from those massive scrums where you get ranks of DDCs all in a blob, and the enemy don't know how to back-cap, or focus without a big red triangle, or whatever.
That's not OP, that's just not liking something.

[Roughneck45]

StalaggtIKE, on 12 February 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

It does a lot more than block LRM/SSRM. Here is a list of things ECM does:

• stealth all allies within 180m radius, up to 200m (blocks guided missiles, damage report and weapon load-out)
  
• distorts radar of enemies within 180m radius; hides allies and enemies not within los, on minimap
  
• blocks sharing of target data of enemies within 180m radius; this also includes TAG
  
• negates all bonuses from BAP, Artemis and NARC
  
• increases lock-on time for guided missiles

The first item alone, makes ECM worth taking. It essentially gives you more armor, because it can potentially hide the fact that one of your arms are about to fall off. It also hides your weapon load-out, so they don't know you're packing 3 SRM6 until you hit them with it. Or that your UAC5 is jammed. Plus this is provided for your whole team, provided they stay within your umbrella.

And yet none of those things are considered OP, at least ive never seen anyone claim they were.

All those benefits you listed are minor at best. The more skilled pilot will still win the fight.

The streak dependency removes skill from the equation in light battles. What used to be (arguably) the highest skill position on the team has been dumbed down to nothing.

I don't want them the change ECM. I want them to make other equipment have some sort of counterplay with it. same for streaks.

Ideally, id like AMS to work much more effectivley against streaks at short range.

BAP greatly increasing the detection range, and making the minimum range smaller as well, would be a great tweak too.

Edited by Roughneck45, 12 February 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[focuspark]

General Taskeen, on 11 February 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

The simple change is that ECM shouldn't prevent locks period. Its not supposed to. I don't see what's so hard about that. In games like MW:LL all it does it make locks harder and prevent you from getting Mech information, but you can still lock.

I'd argue that Streaks should use locks, and LRMs should allow dumb fire.