13 replies to this topic

[Ophidian]

Yes, it's another one of these. If you believe ECM to be totally balanced *cough*powergamers*cough*, your time may be best served by exiting this thread now and returning to whatever you were doing previously. For those of you who remain, consider the following.

Currently, ECM has the following traits:

1. Disrupts targeting of self at long range. (Historical precedent: MW4)
2. Increases lock-on time for missile lock on (which functionally renders faster ECM-shielded mechs almost immune to lock-on. Historical precedent: MW4, countered by BAP)
3. Eliminates lock-on entirely at short range. (No historical precedent)
4. Provides all previous-mentioned traits to all allies within range. (Historical precedent)
5. Disrupts enemy radar detection of allies at short range. (No historical precedent)
6. Disrupts enemy radar detection of enemies at short range. (No historical precedent)
7. Eliminates utility of enemy NARCs and Artemis (counters passive buffs. Historical precedent)
8. Eliminates use of TAG at short range (counters active buff. This should not happen as it makes no sense. Missile sees laser dot. Missile hits laser dot. No communication needed. Also no historical precedent)
9. Counters other ECM. (Historical precedent)

ECM has 4 current and future debuffs:
1. Other ECM
2. Long-range TAG
3. PPC hits (No historic precedent)
4. Bloodhound Active Probe (No current evidence of future implementation)

For 1.5 tons, the price of a single AMS or a medium and a small laser, that's a ridiculous deal. It should only really be able to do, at most, half of those things.


Here is my proposal, just to see what the community might agree with. This isn't really serious, just something I came up with in the last 10 minutes.


For ECM that weights 1.5 tons and occupies 2 slots.
Pick two traits and discard all others.

1. Disrupts long range targeting (full invisibility on radar, 600 meter bubble.)
2. Disrupts short range targeting (flickering invisibility, 200 meter bubble. Full short ranged invisibility reserved for future Stealth Armor)
3. Increases lock-on time for missiles.
4. Decreases accuracy of locked-on missiles.
5. Eliminates lock-on time for missiles at short range (200 meter bubble.)
6. Eliminates utility of enemy NARCs and Artemis (counters passive buffs)
7. Extends other previously mentioned benefits to allies within 200 meter bubble
8. Disrupts enemy radar detection of own allies at short range.
9. Disrupts enemy radar detection of enemies at short range.


Optional Debuffs. Add one trait for every debuff:
1. It scrambles own targeting system. (Extends to allies if trait 7 is taken)
2. Can be countered partially or entirely by BAP.
3. Can be countered by PPC hit (8 -10 second debuff?)

Mandatory Debuffs:
1. Can be countered by other ECM
2. TAG at all ranges
3. Bloodhound Active Probe (not yet available)

[Redshift2k5]

I think it would be nice if it required you to purchase and install MODULES to achieve the majority of ECM effects, requiring you to pick and choose which function you want and requiring you to sacrifice the functions you can't fit.

[Tennex]

just nerf it already

[Rakashan]

Actually, the point of making them into Modules is specifically the PICK 2 mentality. If ECM allows you to enable specific modules and there is one for each of (or many of) the things on OP's list then you have modules slots and you can pick which features you want from your ECM. Suits me fine. I'm just sick of 1 crit slot and 1.5 tons providing more benefits than every other Mod out there combined.

[Roughneck45]

Nevermind. Had something witty here, but it was borderline insulting, so I changed my mind.

ECM is fine.

Other equipment needs to get better, and we need more of it.

Making BAP have some sort of counterplay with ECM would be a good start.

Edited by Roughneck45, 11 February 2013 - 12:50 PM.

[Kyone Akashi]

I'd say we just take a page from the tabletop and have ECM do what it actually does in the tech canon:

- Disrupt sensor scan against any units within bubble (no friend/foe ident, no name, no loadout/damage readout)
- Disrupt minimap as soon as a unit enters the bubble
- Scramble NARC/Artemis within bubble
- Allied unit sensors are not affected by the Guardian suite

And that's it. No effect on targeting, no effect on missile lock. The true value of the Guardian suite will be the more difficult assessment of the enemy force, as well as creating chaos as soon as both forces go into brawl ... and one side suddenly cannot differentiate between friend and foe anymore (relying on visual identification and situational awareness).

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 11 February 2013 - 12:56 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

1, 3, 6 (but only NARC) and 9. I think those are reasonable and make sense. That it scrambles friendlies is overkill imo.

[Archtype]

OP, the historical prescedent for EMP effects from ECM does exist. In previous mechwarrior games the ppc would affect your hud, as well as sarna says this:
"Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors."

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/PPC

this effect is scheduled into the game for the 19th of feb, in addition there also buffs being added to the module "advanced sensor range". read here: http://mwomercs.com/...nd-ecm-changes/

ecm is changing considerably. The last thing you want is ecm to be module based, it just makes it that much more difficult for "young groups" of players to overcome tech employed by those of us who have been around longer.

If you do not like ecm, drop streaks and pick SRMS, lights fear them along with heavier mechs.

[Rakashan]

It's not about liking or not liking ECM, Archtype. It's about balance.

For 1 crit slot and 1.5 tons I can implement an AMS system or an ECM system or BAP. I cannot install NARC. I can install TAG and have 0.5 tons to spare. Of all those systems, ECM is hands down the clear-and-away best option. It's as easy to use as AMS and more effective in multiple situations than any two or maybe even every other system on that list. That's not balanced.

I'm not saying that players should not be able to get every effect that ECM allows. What I *am* saying is that it should not be better than everything else in the game combined *and* easier to use *and* easier to put on a mech.

And no, the proposed fixes coming on the 19th are not enough because a pair of mechs running ECM are still not countered by any of them. And thus the Raven 3L lance is not impacted at *all* because unless every single one of them is hit by a PPC at the same time they will still be under an ECM bubble. The Adv. Sensor route is also absurd, asking people to spend 12,500 gxp and millions of C-Bills and a module slot to provide an individual counter to a module that affects every mech on the battlefield? It's a start but it is still nothing like balance.

And if you're still not getting it, I am not saying make it impossible to get all the effects of ECM. I am saying make it possible, I don't mind playing against it, but make it cost what it is worth... I.E. more than it costs to equip every other module out there combined. (Or make the other modules worth as much as ECM, heck, I don't care.)

[Nightcrept]

I agree with you guys 100%. Nothing is more frustrating then running into a ecm heavy team or someone who knows how to use it.

However, we are out of luck because the devs have pretty much said they like it. I'm not sure what game they play but I guess they must play sometime.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

ECM is just one aspect of Information Warfare, the other aspect is when your screen goes black for several seconds after being hit with a missile or ballistic weapon.

[Hedonism Robot]

I would like to see the ecm changed in the following ways.

• ECM is now available on all chassis however it has been changed into the Guardian ECM and Angle ECM. The guardian is available on lights and mediums and the angle is available on only heavy and assaults.
  
• ECM no longer disrupts allies vision of other allies in short range. It will no longer prevent locks at under 180m. Lock time is increased at these ranges and dmg is reduced from incoming streak missiles.
  
• Gaurdian ECM now only effects the mech equipping it. Angle ECM will effect all surrounding allies however its weight has been increased to 4 tons and it now occupies 3 crit slots.
  
• There is no ability to disrupt the ECM now however BAP will increase the distance you can detect a ECM equipped mech and counter the reduction in lock on missile dmg.

With these changes I feel it would still allow lights to get the protection they need from LRM spam and SSRM spam while maintaining balance. This would also make players need to think twice before putting an ECM on every atlas DDC. The changes would also be more friendly to new players and open more possible builds.

[Abivard]

Let TAG work inside the bubble forthe unit that is mounting the tag.
Reduce LRM min range to 90M.

[Fajther]

I agree with redshift. Many of the things you see ecm doing should have to bo unlocked with mods. It is just way to much for the game to handle.