36 replies to this topic

[Kommisar]

I mainly drive assaults. I have mastered all 3 available chassis. My lightest owned mech (as of the final wipe before Open Beta) are my Cataphracts. I have run every theme you can imagine on an assault. Fatlas, missile boat, brawler, sniper. I have been that assault hanging back trying to work a big LRM loadout or sniping.

More and more, though, I am coming to the conclusion that the assaults need to anchor the battle. Not by standing out in the open taking chump shots! Trust me, if you do that, a semi-good team is going to blow through your Atlas in a few seconds. We have more armor; but we don't have enough to roll out and play pinata either. Especially by ourselves.

By "anchor", I mean holding the attention of the enemy. Being the focus of the battle. It is really simple, actually. If you have an enemy Hunchback, a Catapult A1 and a Stalker in your field of fire; all other elements equal, most guys are going to focus on the Stalker first. If you have two or three assaults all holding an area; then the enemy team is either focused on them or about to get rolled up quick.

The same is true of an assault sniper. An assault sitting back and sniping becomes a focus. The LRM boats are going to want to target him over a hunchback. Quick strikers are going to try and get back to him. And other mechs are going to swing their long range weapons on to him. Essentially, he becomes a second front by his very presence. Unless he then has his own screening element, he is going to be fighting off his own attacks and not in a good situation to do what he was designed to do; lend support fire to the front line fight.

To really pull off a sniper role, you need to be able to slip in to a good spot, hit a valuable target with enough damage to matter, and repeat the process. Assaults generally don't have the speed to do it. Plus, they are attention magnets. In this regard, the Awesome is pretty good here. It is not as feared as the Stalker or Atlas and can move faster. But, I find that when I am in my Awesome, I am not "sniping". I am lending longer range support fire and using another assault or even some heavies to screen me and keep the range above 150.

[1453 R]

Heh...I don't expect you fattie drivers to take all my shots for me, no. it'd just be nice if they started shooting at you first, rather than at me and my Cicadas. Trust me, man - I, at least, know full well that assaults will melt quicker than anyone expects if you figure they're invincible and leave them out to dry. I'll do my best to help you out and keep you up, but you have to be able to help me out, too. Which you can do best by not making me go over that fudge-mothering ridge first in my tiny fast 'Mech

Anyways.

I've never piloted one (beyond a few dubious runs in trial 'Mechs) so I can't really say, but it strikes me that assault pilots need a mix of weapon ranges more than anyone else. They have to be able to fight at whatever range their enemy picks because they don't have the speed to argue the point. You can't really get away with a dedicated PPC Stalker if the enemy has a clue, and you'll take more punishment than you should in an Atlas who loses all meaning outside of 270 meters. Awesomes have a bit more latitude, like ye said, because they're both faster and generally less dreaded than either of the others, but they also need to be able to deal with the Atlas or Stalker they're handing the enemy team. An assault 'Mech pilot who's unwilling to fight other assault 'Mechs is an assault 'Mech pilot that needs to stop piloting assault 'Mechs. That goes for Awesomes as much as it does Atlases.

[jshill78]

Best Sniper build = CDA-3M

Swift - 113.6 KPH
Silent - ECM
Deadly - DUAL ER PPC

Weapons in Torso for better convergence and high up for good hill crest cover. It's really the best loadout for a sniper in the game to truly fulfill the role. Flank, Fire, Move.

[Raso]

She's not the fasted mech on the field but she's got some nice, long range options.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1c08e6f2bfaa099

The reasoning for placing the gauss in the arm us partly due to personal preference and partly due to prevent an gauss rifle explosion from spreading to my center torso and taking out the whole mech. The PPCs are mounted high to allow you to pop over a hill and take a shot with out having to expose yourself and while it looks like it runs hot remember that you won't be using the medium lasers along side the PPCs very often but if the fight comes too close you can fire your medium lasers as long as your heart desires.

If you wished to do so you could drop the medium lasers for more gauss ammo or DHS for more sustained fire but the heat can be managed by using the gauss to supplement your fire or by simply re-positioning yourself after each shot.

You could also replace the PPCs with ER Large Lasers if you feel you can stay on target long enough. The fact that you can fire your torso lasers without having to expose much of yourself makes that a highly viable option if you choose to do so. With ER large lasers you can throw on extra DHS and you gain 2 extra weapons to use in close combat.

[GorgoHammer]

jshill78, on 13 February 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Anyone who pilots an Assault class mech with 40 or less firepower is doing something wrong.

Lol, guys who think like you are my favorite victims. If you watch carefully you will see my Stalker alpha 3 times with 4 PPCs and chain fire 4 more times before shutdown. That's 160 damage in 9 seconds to an Atlas. Even an assault mech melts under 17+ dps firepower . . .

[Omar Ravenhurst]

GorgoHammer, on 13 February 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Lol, guys who think like you are my favorite victims. If you watch carefully you will see my Stalker alpha 3 times with 4 PPCs and chain fire 4 more times before shutdown. That's 160 damage in 9 seconds to an Atlas. Even an assault mech melts under 17+ dps firepower . . .

That's absolutely true. I have a 4g with 11dps from the gun pod and can cripple or kill assaults and heavies in 7-10 seconds. It's useless if I have to kill in 1 or 2 shots, so I just try to avoid those situations.

[One Medic Army]

I love my Cataphract 2X
ERPPC in the right arm
PPC in each side torso
2x SSRMs in the left arm
325XL engine

Fast, with good heat efficiency. Best thing is popping light mechs with it at range, 30concentrated damage puts quite a bit of hurt into a raven/cicada.
The torso mounted PPCs are also very high up, allowing you to shoot over the tops of things similar to the Stalker's arm energy slots.

[Lege]

I've had a lot of success with the 4 large laser, 46 heat sink atlas, alpha is 36.
I often lead the damage and kill chart with it.

[p00k]

GorgoHammer, on 13 February 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

4 PPCs

17+ dps firepower

that's not how dps works
each ppc has 3.3 dps
your stalker has 13.3 dps, not 17+

[GorgoHammer]

p00k, on 16 February 2013 - 12:03 AM, said:

that's not how dps works
each ppc has 3.3 dps
your stalker has 13.3 dps, not 17+

If I was chain firing them it would be 10 damage per second, but using alpha strikes, it's much higher and it's in one location.
Typical Atlas actually dies before I shutdown from the heat . . ..

Edited by GorgoHammer, 25 February 2013 - 10:43 PM.

[Alexander 1978]

Galathon Redd, on 12 February 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

Yeah... did I not mention 41 heat sinks? I don't even run DHS, because there won't be enough room to store as many as I wish I could have.

Hi.

I'm a bit curious here. Cause I sometimes try out various builds using an offline Mechbay program. (I use the one from this post) I use the values from this program for a comparison between builds. And I'll include full build info in spoilers for all those who want to go into details.
I used the program option to include the elite skills to calculate the best results you can reach with the builds.

So this is a more or less accurate copy of your build as I only had the weapons and SHS count to work with:

Spoiler

Chassis Name: Atlas
Model Name: AS7-RS
Variant Name: Quad ERPPC 41 SHS
Engine Cost: 1.226.599 C-Bills
Heat Sink Cost: 132.000 C-Bills
Armor Cost: 180.288 C-Bills
Weapons Cost: 1.200.000 C-Bills
Equipment Cost: 0 C-Bills
Ammo Cost: 0 C-Bills
Engine: 200 Standard Engine
Internal Type: Standard Internals
Armor Type: Standard Armor
Heat Sinks: 41 (8) Standard Heat Sinks
Tonnage: 100,00
Speed: 35,6 kph
Armor Total: 560
Alpha Strike Damage: 40,00
Alpha Strike Heat: 55,56%
Firepower: 14,33 dps
Heat Efficiency: 30,48%
Effective Range of Loadout: 810m
Head: 18/18
Right Torso: 63/84
Right Rear Torso: 21/84
Center Torso: 93/124
Center Rear Torso: 31/124
Left Torso: 63/84
Left Rear Torso: 21/84
Right Arm: 68/68
Left Arm: 68/68
Right Leg: 57/84
Left Leg: 57/84
Weapons Locations
Right Arm:
(2) ERPPC
Left Arm:
(2) ERPPC
Heat Sink Locations
Right Arm: 2
Left Arm: 2
Right Torso: 11
Left Torso: 11
Center Torso: 2
Head: 1
Right Leg: 2
Left Leg: 2

No matter what, I can not fit 41 single heat sinks into that Atlas build without downgrading it to a 200 STD engine and dropping 1.5 tons of armor.
That leaves you at a turtle-ish slow 35.6 kph (with Speed tweak that is) and a heat efficiency of 30,48% (18,07s till completely cooled down). That is 7.92s till you will shut down due overheating. That gives you 2 Alpha's if you want to avoid the shutdown. And that is only 80 damage till you have to back out of the fight and cool down unless you want to take enemy return fire which will in most games come towards you since the already mentioned "attention factor" of the Atlas mech.

Here is a quick DHS build with the same 4 ERPPC but a way bigger engine:

Spoiler

Chassis Name: Atlas
Model Name: AS7-RS
Variant Name: Quad ERPPC 21 DHS
Engine Cost: 2.024.000 C-Bills
Heat Sink Cost: 132.000 C-Bills
Armor Cost: 200.320 C-Bills
Weapons Cost: 1.200.000 C-Bills
Equipment Cost: 0 C-Bills
Ammo Cost: 0 C-Bills
Engine: 330 Standard Engine
Internal Type: Standard Internals
Armor Type: Standard Armor
Heat Sinks: 21 (13) Double Heat Sinks
Tonnage: 99,69
Speed: 58,8 kph
Armor Total: 614
Alpha Strike Damage: 40,00
Alpha Strike Heat: 60,71%
Firepower: 14,33 dps
Heat Efficiency: 25,74%
Effective Range of Loadout: 810m
Head: 18/18
Right Torso: 63/84
Right Rear Torso: 21/84
Center Torso: 93/124
Center Rear Torso: 31/124
Left Torso: 63/84
Left Rear Torso: 21/84
Right Arm: 68/68
Left Arm: 68/68
Right Leg: 84/84
Left Leg: 84/84
Weapons Locations
Right Arm:
(2) ERPPC
Left Arm:
(2) ERPPC
Heat Sink Locations
Right Torso: 4
Left Torso: 4

58,8 kph @ 25,74 % heat efficiency (17,51s till completely cooled down). That gives me 6.26s till shutdown and the same two alphas (if I wanted to avoid a shutdown) as your build. And I have max. armor. So why do you use SHS at all? For that 1s more till shutdown?

I'd suggest you try out a DHS build or even a 4xPPC build. That would leave you with more speed and the normal PPC allows at least for one more Alpha till you hit the shutdown. That could bring one Assault down if the encounter goes "by the book" so to speak.

Lege, on 15 February 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

I've had a lot of success with the 4 large laser, 46 heat sink atlas, alpha is 36.
I often lead the damage and kill chart with it.

Same thing as above I'd suggest to you. Try out the DHS variant and take a bigger engine. Ok I admit with the lower heat large lasers the difference is bigger then with the PPC or ERPPC. But again the question is why make the Atlas even slower then he already is only for more sustained firepower? I think 324 damge till shutdown is enough with DHS for any situation that you normaly face ingame. Sure you can dish out 540 damage (60% more) till you overheat with 46 SHS...but why?

Which engagement goes on over 50 seconds without pause? I think you will rarely even encounter situations where you will benefit from the 30 seconds pure firepower my DHS build gives you.
But you will benefit from 62,4 kph speed to get you into a good position or to keep your enemy at your optimal range longer then with your build. Give it a try or pls tell me a good reason why you would need 50 seconds alpha strike capability @ 36,5 kph Speed.

I mean no offense here or something like "only my builds are good" or some BS like that. I just like to help other players optimize their builds a bit. And here and there I learn something new to improve my builds.

jshill78, on 13 February 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Anyone who pilots an Assault class mech with 40 or less firepower is doing something wrong.

Yes and no. First bigger Alpha strikes are nice but sustained firepower will win more fights then the big Alpha that can only be fired every now and then. Let us compare a short range brawler build with a mid to longe range 4 LL build for this.

The brawler has an Aplha strike in the 70's. Lets say 75 just for the comparison. That is a bit more then double the Alpha that the 4 LL Atlas has (36).

Let us asume here that both builds avoid the shutdown because who want's to be a sitting duck eh? The brawler can fire two Alpha's (150 damage) before he would shut down with his third. The LargeLaser Build can fire 9 Alpha's (324 damage) before he would go into a shutdown with his 10th Alpha. So unless you have a situation where you can land those 2 mighty brawler Alpha's on the same spot (center torso) when at optimal range for all your weapons you would not kill the LL build. But the LL build could continue to Alpha strike you for a much longer time and in most brawler setups can open fire at a longer range then the brawler.

So each kind of setup has it's merits and flaws. If you catch the LL build up close the brawler has the better options. If you have to close in first the LL build will melt the brawler down badly before he even reaches the LL build. If he can catch him at his top speed at all.

So do not underestimate those lower Alpha builds that concentrate on doing less damage longer and more damage total then any high alpha build.

That was my wall of text for the day.

Alexander 1978

EDIT: Sorry I made a mistake in the Laser Damage calculations. They are lower cause I forgot to add the beam duration for the max. Damage till shutdown calculations. It is something around 396 damage for the 46 HS 4 LL build and about 252 damage for the DHS build.

Edited by Alexander 1978, 26 February 2013 - 11:49 PM.

[Galathon Redd]

Alexander, you might be confused in that we counted the ten HS the engine provides. 41 heat sinks means 10 from the engine (I believe it was a 300 or a 280; can't remember now because the build is a little different now) and 31 elsewhere.

Yes, we're fully aware that it runs quite hot. That's why you don't just run around Alpha-striking, willy-nilly. Usually, I fire off an Alpha or two, then switch to chain-fire if my target isn't dead (which is rare).

Currently, the build runs 2 ERPPC and 2PPC. (Slightly less heat, and still 2ERPPC for up-close defense). It runs slow with a 280XL engine now, and every last crit slot filled with single heat sinks (plus 10 from engine makes 40SHS total). Heat efficiency is a nicer 1.25, so less heat management needed, especially if I fire my PPCs in pairs instead of alphas. Still a brutal sniper, though, and I'm still open to ideas for improvement.

[Atlas32]

Wrenchfarm, on 12 February 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

I am the longstanding champion of the 3xPPC Awesome-9M with a XL385 engine. 30 damage repeatable alpha strike, speed to re-position and move when things get bad. 3xPPCs seem to be the sweet spot, the 9M can pack enough sinks to keep them cool. Any more PPCs and even Stalkers and Atlai can't jam enough heatsinks in them to keep from shutting down constantly.

But please, remember that "sniping" doesn't mean "sit still" in this game. The 9M is so successful (for me anyway) because it has speed and torso twisting ability to go with the long range pelting. You need to be aware of your surroundings and able to retreat near teammates if a light or medium sneaks up on you in the 90m dead zone. If you just stand in one place sniping with a guass build or some goofy 6xPPC stalker, you're just begging to be focused down by LRMs and other long range builds.


I was thinking the same thing. Fire once, sit out for the next 40 seconds. Yeah, sounds like a fun and useful build.

4PPC Altas RS has enough heat sinks for 3 alphas in a row. I've had great success with this build.

[Alexander 1978]

Galathon Redd, on 26 February 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Alexander, you might be confused in that we counted the ten HS the engine provides. 41 heat sinks means 10 from the engine (I believe it was a 300 or a 280; can't remember now because the build is a little different now) and 31 elsewhere.

Yes, we're fully aware that it runs quite hot. That's why you don't just run around Alpha-striking, willy-nilly. Usually, I fire off an Alpha or two, then switch to chain-fire if my target isn't dead (which is rare).

Currently, the build runs 2 ERPPC and 2PPC. (Slightly less heat, and still 2ERPPC for up-close defense). It runs slow with a 280XL engine now, and every last crit slot filled with single heat sinks (plus 10 from engine makes 40SHS total). Heat efficiency is a nicer 1.25, so less heat management needed, especially if I fire my PPCs in pairs instead of alphas. Still a brutal sniper, though, and I'm still open to ideas for improvement.

I did calculate the 10 from the engine too. I did my test build without the XL that's why I had to drop down to a 200 STD engine and drop 1,5 to armor to realise 41 SHS.
But yes with a 280 XL you can still fit 40 SHS (11 in the engine, the rest in every free crit slot as you mentioned).

XL in any assault mech besides the fast Awesome variant is a "no go" for me so I did not consider that option.

Essentially what you do is sacrificing speed and surviability for one more alpha. If it is worth it then go for it. I rather stick to more speed and max. armor. But thx for answering. A variant a friend of mine uses is 2 ERPPC paired with a Gauss. That take alot of HS crit slots for the Gauss and ammo but it is only 5 points less damage and you take alot of heat away with the Gauss. Maybe you could try that one out to improve even further. Also the different bullet travel times may prove to be a bit challenging when firing on moving targets. Firing the ERPPC and the Gauss seperatly should do the trick.

I tried the build with Smurfy's Mechlab this time and it looks promising with enough Gauss ammo to fire without counting every shot (5to) and AMS with (2to of ammo). It runs even cooler then the 4 PPC version but has a better range and only 5 points less Alpha. You could of course pack in even more Gauss ammo and drop the AMS or something else. Did not play around much to optimize it alot.

Alexander 1978

[Galathon Redd]

Right on, Alex. Yeah, the different travel times has turned me off thus far, but I may still try that build. It does sound fairly vicious.

Here's why I figured an XL engine on this Atlas would be okay: once somebody figures out I'm packing 4 PPCs, I'm'a get fekt up anyways. So far, this proves true quite often - either my team keeps the opponents too busy to focus fire on me, or I get pounded on so hard there's no surviving it, XL engine or not. It's similar logic from my old Hunchback builds - I'm gonna lose my hunch, and if I do, I lose 80-90% of my arsenal, so I'd rather be dead anyways, having done basically all I can.

[TVMA Doc]

1453 R, on 13 February 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Heh...I don't expect you fattie drivers to take all my shots for me, no. it'd just be nice if they started shooting at you first, rather than at me and my Cicadas. Trust me, man - I, at least, know full well that assaults will melt quicker than anyone expects if you figure they're invincible and leave them out to dry. I'll do my best to help you out and keep you up, but you have to be able to help me out, too. Which you can do best by not making me go over that fudge-mothering ridge first in my tiny fast 'Mech

Anyways.

I've never piloted one (beyond a few dubious runs in trial 'Mechs) so I can't really say, but it strikes me that assault pilots need a mix of weapon ranges more than anyone else. They have to be able to fight at whatever range their enemy picks because they don't have the speed to argue the point. You can't really get away with a dedicated PPC Stalker if the enemy has a clue, and you'll take more punishment than you should in an Atlas who loses all meaning outside of 270 meters. Awesomes have a bit more latitude, like ye said, because they're both faster and generally less dreaded than either of the others, but they also need to be able to deal with the Atlas or Stalker they're handing the enemy team. An assault 'Mech pilot who's unwilling to fight other assault 'Mechs is an assault 'Mech pilot that needs to stop piloting assault 'Mechs. That goes for Awesomes as much as it does Atlases.

I don't want to be the single Atlas poking over the ridge either. It is a HUGE target and while well armored, it can be cored by two or three decent mechs in a single salvo. The Atlas should be leading a charge with quite a bit of support-either to distract fire are at least avenge the death of the Atlas that helped shield the rest of the attackers.

If a single mech is to poke over the ridge, it should be the light. I've been working on finishing the last elite boxes for my third raven and I have relatively little difficulty racing over the ridge at 125kph and taking minor damage. With proper evasive movement, and the lack of someone landing a very lucky salvo, I'm usually taking only some glancing laser fire. The trick is speed, don't move in a straight line toward or perpendicular to the enemy and try to be unpredictable. Don't come over in the same place more than once and don't do circles, especially in the same direction.

Just remember that if your team mate is flying over the ridge, be prepared to support their effort. If it's a light, be ready for the lock ons to fire those LRMs, and if it's your Atlas be ready to pop over together. Better yet, have you thought of flanking?

[Grizley]

Depending what range you need to count yourself as a sniper the 3xUAC Ilya is worth mentioning. It doesn't have quite the range of ER PPCs but it's pretty solid.

It also points out what a laughable stat firepower is. A 3xUAC 2xML Ilya has a firepower score of 25. However, the recycle on those things is 1.1 second, it can core an Atlas in no time. If 1.1s is too slow you can try your luck with double firing, you might jam but then again you might do 90+ damage in under a second.