169 replies to this topic

[chewie]

@ Lukoi

The *selfish sods* comment was aimed at those who want to only run the uber mechs.
Not necessarily made to have a go at people and be insulting as you say, which because of how i tend to express myself at times it does come across like that, but more as a comparison of their mindset as far as the game goes. They only want things their way, thus they are being selfish to a large degree.

The game has lots of scope for running with either Stocks or custom mechs, like it does a little bit with trials for those who are new to the game.

I feel that all of us should include more stocks to help give a better all-round gaming experience though.

Not just so someone can pWn someone else because they are running a highly optimized (see BOAT) build while their target isn't.

Right now, games are normally over in under 8 minutes. Why, because of custom builds making it too easy to take down an opposing player.
In a stock mech:
If your running a mech that is prone to overheating, you check your fire and save the alpha for that 1 crucial moment.
If your running a mech that has a finite amount of ammo, you check your fire and use it when its more likely to get a hit/kill.
In a custom mech, your just go for it, and to hell with it because you don't have to worry about it.

Right now, you just spam away with the missiles because you have optimized the chassis to carry that extra ammo, or heatsinks for your laser boat.

In the case of the 4P, you reduce the meds to smalls, increase the engine rating, make the few h/s you have doubles and you spend the match firing 9 small lasers at a mech as you race by, knowing that you don't have to worry about shifting your aim because the duration of the beam and the damage that will be done will be short, and high and you'll be ready to do it again in .5 of a sec with no worries.
You have enough armour that as far as DPS goes, your likely gonna carve your opponent up before he can do the same to you.
The 6 srm splatapult, has enough speed and armour, that you can get in close and drop 2 salvo's (in most cases) and the opponent is dead. you move on.

And bang, the game is over. And you move on to the next.

I ask you this. Where is the point in this. Its just getting kills to show how good a shot you are, and that's all.

[chewie]

Mackman, on 13 February 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Kind of naive, don't you think? Or did you fail to take into account the pin-point aiming, as well as heat issues, that would totally break certain mechs?

Please expand on how that post was naive?

I'm fully aware of *pin point aiming* and *heat thresholds*. How would these break things?

[Solis Obscuri]

Loadouts that encourage people watch their heat, conserve ammo, and place their shots? Yeah, sounds like a fun game mode.

[Fred013]

But only as a game mode. You can still play Assault when that gets boring.

[Mackman]

chewie, on 13 February 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Please expand on how that post was naive?

I'm fully aware of *pin point aiming* and *heat thresholds*. How would these break things?

The Stock builds depend on the inabiilty to not consistently hit the mech and particular section that you're aiming at. That would greatly enhance the effectiveness of direct-fire mechs like the K2 (although admittedly, the K2 would likely have heat issues). When you can reliably hit the same section with multiple weapons, you have a problem with stock configs.(the stock Cataphract with two AC2's and two AC5's, for instance, would be able to dish out quite a lot of damage in the hands of a skilled sniper).

Which leads me to my next point: Heat. Right now, weapons have all sorts of different firing rates, and they're balanced around those rates. in the TT, each weapon can fire only once every ten seconds. This would lead to heat issues almost across the board, but certain mechs (like the laser hunchback) would likely face huge issues with overheating. This means that mechs who have less heat-intensive weapons would be dramatically more useful and effective.

In short, to conclude that a "stock mech only" gametype would eliminate "OP builds" is absolutely absurd. The problems with using TT configs in a real-time setting would immediately result in some mechs being next to worthless, and others being (relatively) god-like. You'd quickly end up with the exact problem TT-devotees are complaining about now: People would figure out which mechs are good, which are bad, and only play the best.

Edited by Mackman, 13 February 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[Stormwolf]

Mackman, on 13 February 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

In short, to conclude that a "stock mech only" gametype would eliminate "OP builds" is absolutely absurd. The problems with using TT configs in a real-time setting would immediately result in some mechs being next to worthless, and others being (relatively) god-like. You'd quickly end up with the exact problem TT-devotees are complaining about now: People would figure out which mechs are good, which are bad, and only play the best.

I see, could you name a few (relatively) god-like mechs?

[Mackman]

Stormwolf, on 13 February 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

I see, could you name a few (relatively) god-like mechs?

I'd say the cataphract 4x, for one, since it has excellent heat efficiency, as well as the ability to do pinpoint alpha's of 15-20 damage (forget how much dmg a LL is off the top of my head) with a relatively low heat cost. The K2 would be able to put out excellent, consistent damage as long as it has someone screening for it. Conversely, many of the stock mechs have absolutely abysmal heat efficiency, meaning their DPS in any kind of engagement would be absolutely pitiful.

Am I sure these mechs would outshine the others? No. In fact, it's possible the game would go some crazy direction like light mechs with high alphas just popping out and doing run-by's, then waiting to cool down before doing it again. But one thing is absolutely certain: you can't take stock mechs from a tabletop game, put them in a real-time first-person-shooter format, and expect them to be even close to balanced.

[Lukoi Banacek]

chewie, on 13 February 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

@ Lukoi

...snip...

I ask you this. Where is the point in this. Its just getting kills to show how good a shot you are, and that's all.

Ok, that makes more sense. Please ignore the "selfish" comment as it's not pertaining to you then.

Having said that, you and I clearly disagree on the fun factor inherent to customized Mechs in combat based on your previous comment. I have to manage heat in my customized Mechs, I've sacrificed something (engine durability, armor, AMS) to get that extra missile/ballistic ammo. Just because I customize my Mechs to more closely fit my play style doesn't mean those limitations don't exist. In fact in many "optimized" builds the requirements are higher because pilots tend to take riskier (ala higher heat) builds.

I don't believe the game is any more visceral fun played stock than it is custom....but I'm all for the mode being included in the game. Just as an option, not a requirement.

[Stormwolf]

Mackman, on 13 February 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

I'd say the cataphract 4x, for one, since it has excellent heat efficiency, as well as the ability to do pinpoint alpha's of 15-20 damage (forget how much dmg a LL is off the top of my head) with a relatively low heat cost.

I'll assume that your opponent won't be standing still during battle, the 4X doesn't have CASE but carries ammo in the torso's. Targeting those will make for interesting results when you finally pop one side.

Quote

The K2 would be able to put out excellent, consistent damage as long as it has someone screening for it. Conversely, many of the stock mechs have absolutely abysmal heat efficiency, meaning their DPS in any kind of engagement would be absolutely pitiful.

Well it's a level 1 design, what do you expect?

Quote

Am I sure these mechs would outshine the others? No. In fact, it's possible the game would go some crazy direction like light mechs with high alphas just popping out and doing run-by's, then waiting to cool down before doing it again. But one thing is absolutely certain: you can't take stock mechs from a tabletop game, put them in a real-time first-person-shooter format, and expect them to be even close to balanced.

There is a imbalance that was even present in the TT, it's essentially one big rock-paper-scissors game. That CN9-A is always going to get beaten by a AS7-D, but the AS7-D will have a hard time fighting Jenners especially if they come in a group.

This balance gets disrupted by the introduction of Clan tech and Level 2 IS tech.
People will want to pilot that CN9-D instead of that old CN9-A (which in 3050 has become obsolete anyway), but a fight between in a CN9-A and D isn't hopeless. You still have a shot at pulling of a victory here.

Now, a non-optimized machine against a guassapult or splatcat will stand no chance at all. The balance in stock matches isn't perfect, but it's better then custom matches will ever be.

[Mackman]

Stormwolf, on 13 February 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

There is a imbalance that was even present in the TT, it's essentially one big rock-paper-scissors game. That CN9-A is always going to get beaten by a AS7-D, but the AS7-D will have a hard time fighting Jenners especially if they come in a group.

This balance gets disrupted by the introduction of Clan tech and Level 2 IS tech.
People will want to pilot that CN9-D instead of that old CN9-A (which in 3050 has become obsolete anyway), but a fight between in a CN9-A and D isn't hopeless. You still have a shot at pulling of a victory here.

Now, a non-optimized machine against a guassapult or splatcat will stand no chance at all. The balance in stock matches isn't perfect, but it's better then custom matches will ever be.

It's not going to be even close to perfect, dude. And that means that for the first week, tops, there will be a wide variety of mechs in the game. But after that one week, people will have realized what the best mechs are, and playing anything less than that will handicap your team.

I do sincerely believe that any kind of straight stock match would be horrifically boring, because to have good heat efficiency, you could only fire once every ten seconds. And I really doubt enough players would play such a mode to make it worth-while for PGI to develop it. But hey: I'm not going to rain on your parade any more: good luck none-the-less.

Edited by Mackman, 13 February 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[Erasus Magnus]

RiceyFighter, on 12 February 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

I like to call that mode, HardCore mode~

I`d call it "BattleTech" .Cool idea, huh?

[Stormwolf]

Mackman, on 13 February 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

It's not going to be even close to perfect, dude. And that means that for the first week, tops, there will be a wide variety of mechs in the game. But after that one week, people will have realized what the best mechs are, and playing anything less than that will handicap your team.

I do sincerely believe that any kind of straight stock match would be horrifically boring, because to have good heat efficiency, you could only fire once every ten seconds. And I really doubt enough players would play such a mode to make it worth-while for PGI to develop it. But hey: I'm not going to rain on your parade any more: good luck none-the-less.

Well that's your opinion, but I figure that the custom games will eventually go this route anyway:
http://mwomercs.com/...-star-pictures/

[TheForce]

Mackman, on 13 February 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Kind of naive, don't you think? Or did you fail to take into account the pin-point aiming, as well as heat issues, that would totally break certain mechs?

Pinpoint is an issue in custom battles too.

Heat could be adjusted for stock battles, but even if it isn't it would just be an additional challenge I'd be happy to deal with if everyone else has to deal with it too.

Everyone's on a level playing field if they're all driving "broken" mechs.

Edited by TheForce, 13 February 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[WildeKarde]

I'd have to say yes as it would probably be enjoyable. Having played several stock mechs you can still do well in a game.

[TheForce]

Jake Hendricks, on 13 February 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Having played several stock mechs you can still do well in a game.

Especially when everyone else is in a stock mech too.

Edited by TheForce, 13 February 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[TheForce]

Thontor, on 13 February 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

I guess i'm all for it..

but it wouldnt change much.. people would still gravitate towards a few of the better stock variants.

Stock/custom, people are still going to use the best mechs. When we can host private matches people will implement their own restrictions.

[EmCeeMendez]

No, because the exact same metagame will evolve for this gametype. There will be optimal Mechs, they will get played much more frequently, forum QQ, rinse and repeat. It won't do anything but slow down the pace of the game, leading to 7-9 minute matches instead of 4-6.

[TheMadPoet]

Yes! Stock Variants..and only on Caustic Valley map! Fire..overheat..fire...overheat..explode! Now THAT would be hardcore!

[TheForce]

TheMadPoet, on 13 February 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

Yes! Stock Variants..and only on Caustic Valley map! Fire..overheat..fire...overheat..explode! Now THAT would be hardcore!

The average MechWarrior doesn't have the luxury of modding their mech before dropping onto a hot planet.

Different story for MinmaxWarriors though isn't it?

[TheForce]

So far about 70% are for a stock game mode...anyone else surprised?