Jump to content

The Real Reason People Hate The Cap


304 replies to this topic

#101 Ngamok

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 5,033 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationLafayette, IN

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:55 AM

View PostIceSerpent, on 13 February 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:


So, you want to shoot stuff, but instead of shooting whatever mechs are trying to cap your base you decide to wander off in a random direction and complain on the forums about it being boring? If you really wanted to shoot something, you would be actually trying to find an enemy to shoot at, right? And that "base is being captured" warning tells you exactly where those enemies are...


Which is why I say we start Base Sitting with the entire team !

#102 Low351

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 64 posts
  • LocationMontreal

Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:56 AM

If base capping were removed our strategy options would be reduced. You wouldn't be able to stand on cap to turn/split the enemy team. Standoffs would be more likely. Would you rather say after 3mins "That sucked!" or wait out the entire 15 with neither side making a move which sucks more (happens in 8 vs 8 premades). You need to have a method to shake things up. It sucks when it happens without a battle but then that just means one side made a tactical error or the non-capping team was too chicken to go back and protect their cap.

Personally I will step off cap if it's not a cap race or a slaughter and fight it out. We're there to fight not avoid combat.

Edited by Low351, 13 February 2013 - 09:59 AM.


#103 MischiefSC

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Benefactor
  • The Benefactor
  • 16,697 posts

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:00 AM

View PostLow351, on 13 February 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

If base capping were removed our strategy options would be reduced. You wouldn't be able to stand on cap to turn/split the enemy team. Standoffs would be more likely. Would you rather say after 3mins "That sucked!" or wait out the entire 15 with neither side making a move which sucks more (happens in 8 vs 8 premades). You need to have a method to shake things up. It sucks when it happens without a battle but then that just means one side made a tactical error or the non-capping team was too chicken to go back and protect their cap.


Standoffs give way to tactical positioning, flanking, sniping and a dozen other options. Scouting becomes important because you actually need to know what mechs and what loadouts the other team is fielding and where to better position your attack or defense.

There are tons of tactical options that open up when it stops being about standing in a box for 60 seconds trumping any and all other tactical choices. Keep the other guys from standing on your box or conversely get one of your guys to their box for 60 seconds. Oh, and shoot at people sometimes. Doesn't matter who, or with what, because anything you do is trumped completely by standing on a box.

#104 Trev Firestorm

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Boombox
  • The Boombox
  • 1,240 posts

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:02 AM

OP is spot on, dont like it? Too bad, learn to play.

#105 Crockdaddy

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 1,684 posts
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationSaint Louis

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:06 AM

I would be OK with capping if it offered some substantial reward. As it stands a CAP victory rings somewhat hollow to me. The C-Bill gain is minimal. Often if I get capped I have made more C-Bills / exp than the victors due to damage / targeting ... a kill / assist. If there was some point to CAP victory (substantial C-Bill gain) or when you are in a tournament then I completely love capping as a strategy. At this point, during a pug we only use CAP to pull some enemy units apart. We step off the CAP before it is over to finish the fight. The exception being if we are getting ROLF stomped ... then yeah we would like to stick it too them a bit.

A bit of honesty, when I am an assault / heavy ... i @$#^& hate capping. In my fast scout / light / medium I am usually fine with capping (I can respond quickly to being capped). I know ... hypocritical ... but aren't we all to some extent.

#106 OneEyed Jack

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,500 posts

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:08 AM

View PostEsplodin, on 13 February 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:


I'm trying to think of a way you could pack more offensive non-productive discussion into one post and get past the filters. Nope, can't do it.



Then you didn't bother to actually pay any attention to what i wrote. That is exactly the discussion.

It's not about whether there exists a cap mechanic. It's not about whether the post-match screen says "Victory" or "Defeat." It's not about whether it was someone on the other team base-rushing or your own.

And yet the counter is inevitably some variation of "I play to win. If you don't like it, learn to defend." But never once have I seen anyone suggest how I can manage to not win by a base-rush? TK? Tell the op4 it's coming? Possibility, but they'd probably think it was a trick.

The repeated "learn to defend" argument get's a bit old and stale when I don't care if I win or lose as long as it was fun.

Sadly, we can all expect a a lot of base-rushes once ELO starts since winning actually means something, kinda making the whole conversation moot. I expect it will bring a whole different style of play to anyone over 1300, and base defense will be the default tactic to stop the rushes. Advancing will leave your base open to a rush and splitting to leave defenders leaves you open to defeat in detail. It may well be the thing that finally forces a better solution to the game mode as both sides refuse to leave base to engage. Or the only viable mechs will be those moving >100kph. For those that haven't seen it, a premade of fast lights, all with Capture Accelerators, can get to the enemy base and cap in well under 2 minutes.

#107 Rofl

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 435 posts
  • LocationTrash can around the corner.

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:09 AM

I wonder if the same people that complain about capping in this game would complain about rescuing hostages and/or planting bombs in CS. Perhaps they'd complain about flag caps in a CTF game as well?

so confused...

#108 Feircus Blacktooth

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 21 posts
  • LocationNorthwind

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:10 AM

It will be nice when we can start playing for more objectives or scenario based missions, as opposed to blow up the other team or cap. The slugfest for just money is getting monotonous. C-bills should be a concern for mercs, not Houses or clanners. When do we get to play for planets and house pride?

#109 Mercules

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nimble
  • The Nimble
  • 5,136 posts
  • LocationPlymouth, MN

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:13 AM

View PostDe La Fresniere, on 13 February 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:


False.

If a couple fast mechs on my team decide to go cap and opponents don't stop them, I only get a fraction of a fight. Everyone loses.


Why is why you need better opponents... you know all those OTHER people joining you in complaining instead of learning how to stop it.

View PostMischiefSC, on 13 February 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:


Standoffs give way to tactical positioning, flanking, sniping and a dozen other options. Scouting becomes important because you actually need to know what mechs and what loadouts the other team is fielding and where to better position your attack or defense.

There are tons of tactical options that open up when it stops being about standing in a box for 60 seconds trumping any and all other tactical choices. Keep the other guys from standing on your box or conversely get one of your guys to their box for 60 seconds. Oh, and shoot at people sometimes. Doesn't matter who, or with what, because anything you do is trumped completely by standing on a box.


None of these tactical options go away or shouldn't be exercised with Base Cap in the game. They aren't when I play. I even type in things like, "SRM cat f4" so people know to take it out at range. All this awareness you are talking about wouldn't get used without base cap because it isn't used right now when the incentive is, "Use it or have someone cap your base." They can't even be bothered to NOTICE other mechs, much less figure out what they are carrying.

#110 Odins Fist

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 3,111 posts
  • LocationThe North

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:15 AM

View PostEsplodin, on 13 February 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

I think it is time to finally finish leveling my spiders and do NOTHING but base caps until the opposition learns that this is a game of balance between tonnage, speed, and heat. mechanic is easier then having a strategy for it.

.
And I think "SKEEEEEET SHOOTING" Spiders out of the air, or melting them with lasers is one of the most fun (AND EASY) things to do in MWO currently... Strategies are limited by map & team size in MWO currently, so anyone that thinks they are a re-born version of General "Freaking" Patton has by default an over developed sense of self worth/Skills..
.
Good Luck

Edited by Odins Fist, 13 February 2013 - 10:16 AM.


#111 Mystere

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 22,783 posts
  • LocationClassified

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:18 AM

View PostA5mod3us, on 13 February 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

What it sounds like a lot of players want is a death match ...


Frankly, I could care less about TDM. I'd rather have a 16+ no-holds-barred winner-take-all last-man-standing game mode. :P

I think there are just too many players hanging on the coattails of their team mates. ;)

#112 Bullseye69

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Undertaker
  • The Undertaker
  • 454 posts

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:20 AM

Capping has it place but I do like a good battle a easy fix would be third game mode called team deathmatch it end when time runs out or all enemies dead.

#113 ItsAPotato

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 126 posts

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:22 AM

View PostIceSerpent, on 13 February 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:


So, you want to shoot stuff, but instead of shooting whatever mechs are trying to cap your base you decide to wander off in a random direction and complain on the forums about it being boring? If you really wanted to shoot something, you would be actually trying to find an enemy to shoot at, right? And that "base is being captured" warning tells you exactly where those enemies are...


Lets take a look at this strategy.

Either you are implying that we all run lights so that we can get back to the base in time from anywhere, or you are implying that all or some slow heavies should stay very close to their base so that they can get back in time. I'll assume the later, since Rule #3 of Mechwarrior Online is that any lights on your team will be pants-on-head ******** and will fail to do their job most of the time.

How will anyone ever engage? Both teams are glued to their base if they follow your strategy.

Leave a few behind to guard against the cap while the other ~6 assault the enemy, you say? Well the enemy are still clumped up at their base. 6v8 is a losing proposition. No one wants that, so we all stand around waiting. MechWaiting Online.

The only reason I see this argument continuing is because some people derive enjoyment purely from seeing "Victory" spelled out at the top of the screen, regardless of reward, while others (I dare say most) derive their enjoyment from, you know, fighting other big stompy space robots. I would imagine that the people in the "victory" camp, if given to option to pull an "I win" string at the start of the match which instantly ends the match with a victory in their favor, would do so if given the opportunity.

I believe we all agree that a cap win is fine if it's the only option left for a win, though

Edited by ItsAPotato, 13 February 2013 - 10:27 AM.


#114 Novawrecker

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 905 posts

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:23 AM

Real reason those players hate the cap:

.."Ungah! I r bash joo wif mah mekz"

.. and expect nothing but the same in return.

#115 De La Fresniere

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 622 posts

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:26 AM

View PostTrev Firestorm, on 13 February 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

OP is spot on, dont like it? Too bad, learn to play.


How exactly is my proficiency in the game going to stop some idiots on my team from capping the enemy base?

#116 Rofl

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 435 posts
  • LocationTrash can around the corner.

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:26 AM

I don't understand how people are incapable of finding enemy movement. The only way you can fail terribly at 8v8 by cap is if you over extend yourself without any knowledge of the opposing force.

#117 S1lent0ne

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • 96 posts

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:28 AM

OK - so I have a solution to this problem. It is something that will never ever happen because once set in their ways devs don't like doing extra work.

Make it an actual base assault - i.e. actual base destruction. Make the structure at the base the actual target then give it something like 2000 HP.

Lights rushing the base will now do little good because they just don't have the damage output - you actually would need the firepower of one or two Assault Mechs to actually "Assault" the base.

#118 Esplodin

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 494 posts
  • LocationRight behind you!

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:28 AM

View PostOdins Fist, on 13 February 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

And I think "SKEEEEEET SHOOTING" Spiders out of the air, or melting them with lasers is one of the most fun (AND EASY) things to do in MWO currently...


River city night is my favorite to live up to my name. I might even carry extra AC ammo to add a bit of color to the pinata. :P

#119 MischiefSC

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Benefactor
  • The Benefactor
  • 16,697 posts

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:29 AM

Here's the thing. The really stupid thing. There is 1 and only 1 good tactical option in Assault because of the mechanics.

Have your entire team minus 1 light mech camp your base. No matter what don't leave it. Take up a defensive position, ideally with a mix of ECM mechs and LRM boats.

Have your 1 light wait until the enemy is heavily engaged, then go cap the enemy base.

What this will lead to is both teams just camping for 15 minutes since any other approach is doomed to failure because of ECM and missile balance. Tag someone? He steps back for 30 seconds behind cover as your slow moving missiles chug towards him.

Actually, by the same logic of 'just defend your base, if you got capped you deserved to lose' what you should be saying is 'Anyone who isn't sync-dropping a full 8 man team is a fool for not taking proper tactical advantage of the games mechanics'.

It's exactly the same logic. It's taking advantage of a poor design, nothing more.

Quote

None of these tactical options go away or shouldn't be exercised with Base Cap in the game. They aren't when I play. I even type in things like, "SRM cat f4" so people know to take it out at range. All this awareness you are talking about wouldn't get used without base cap because it isn't used right now when the incentive is, "Use it or have someone cap your base." They can't even be bothered to NOTICE other mechs, much less figure out what they are carrying.


They do all go away because they are not particularly relevant. Far less so than standing on a box for 60 seconds. You're happy just to get to shoot at someone before the match ends.

A large part is the psychology of it - the whole game can end without you ever participating at any time because other people you don't know, can't hold accountable and will never see again may or may not go stand in a box or conversely keep the other guy from standing in your box and the game just ends. It makes your performance or even your teams performance minus that one guy irrelevant.

Let me put it this way.

Suppose you got to eat all three meals a day at a huge banquet. Tons and tons of amazing food of various sorts and flavors. However, suddenly at Lunchtime someone rings a bell and explains that unless someone runs back to their room and brings him a left shoe all the food goes away.

You're not a sprinter. You have a bum knee, so you look around at the strangers you're eating with..... nobody goes. Suddenly you've only had a few bites and it's gone.

Dinner goes fine but you hurry through your meal because you can't be sure if you'll get to finish it.

The next day it's breakfast when the bell gets rung. You quit paying attention to the quality of the food because you just need calories, you're hungry. Someone it seems did bring him a shoe but now you've eaten so much you're sick.

After a few days of this regardless of bell or no bell everyone will hurry in, pushing and shoving, eating as much food as they can because they don't know if the bell will ring or not ring. Their ability to eat their meal is contingent on the behavior of strangers.

If you're dropping in a premade I can see where being able to say 'Bob, go block cap' is going to work great. Or even the ability to say 'someone hold the base' and reasonably expect someone to do so. In pug games (which if you drop pug is the vast majority) this is utterly arbitrary and can't be counted on. Your best odds are to try and convince everyone to just base camp....

but that's boring and not why most people play the game. So in order to play Assault as a pug you have to not play it for fun but for work.

Does that make sense? If this was CoD with respawn mechanics and kills didn't mean much outside of kill-streaks then it wouldn't matter but this is a game based around the idea of mech to mech combat. Complex weight, loadout and design mechanics specifically for how you want to fight other mechs. If you don't want to fight there's still Conquest, which is far more complex a mechanic for this anyway.

Assault is a bad design. Trying to justify otherwise is akin to justifying sync dropped 8mans. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's a good idea.

#120 Ngamok

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 5,033 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationLafayette, IN

Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:31 AM

View PostRofl, on 13 February 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

I wonder if the same people that complain about capping in this game would complain about rescuing hostages and/or planting bombs in CS. Perhaps they'd complain about flag caps in a CTF game as well?

so confused...


IN CS, you have to do those objectives because as the bad guys, you have your base which are the hostages, the police don't have one. Same thing with the bombs. The police guard the base(s) so the bad guys don't blow them up. So essentially what you are saying is that one team gets their base removed here and it's the same thing. Wouldn't that be fun since you know what you have to do rather than just sit around waiting to for one team or the other to base rush or both teams to just sit and defend the entire time because you know, to avoid the base rush you must defend !





4 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 4 guests, 0 anonymous users