179 replies to this topic

[zraven7]

Bryan Kerensky, on 13 February 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

I'm guessing you're being sarcastic so, I won't say anything.

*hands you a cookie*

Kerensky would be proud of your grasp of the obvious. :-)

[zraven7]

Clay Pigeon, on 13 February 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

AC/20's component HP could stand to be boosted, given how it's a damage magnet once armor is stripped.

While I can see your point, I tend to think any section with it's armor stripped becomes a damage magnet, regardless of the components inside. Once the section the AC20 is in is stripped of armor, people will shoot at it because of armor, not because they wanna destroy the AC20. They shot at the AC20 while it had armor because of the AC20. Increasing the guns hp would really change that.

[Zero Neutral]

Zerethon, on 13 February 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

And it's beaten by a 1-ton item that takes up 1 crit slot and i'd use anyways because it lets me focus the damage of my LRM's more usefully.

Can people not use logic?

Besides. I'd be carrying the SRM's and ML anyways because fast mechs of any volition (Dragon, lights, mediums) that can close in to within 180 pretty easy would still be a problem for me even if ECM didn't exist and i could just boat LRM's all day.

I don't like the idea of only having a pair of medium lasers to fend off something that can carry many times that firepower and get close with ease.

Dude don't bother, those people who think that way about ECM simply want their LRM boats back, where the ONLY thing they had to worry about was a fast mech coming over to harass; not HAVING to TAG, or worry about ECM cloak, or worry about ECM mechs nearby. They want to just sit there, with their bodyguards, (who hate them for wanting bodyguards,) and shoot their LRM. Better yet, they want to streak boat. Either way they do not want to adapt.

Electronic warfare is here people. ADAPT. It does have counters, learn to use them. ECM is not OP, it just is what it is. It is the component that is currently the foundation of the electronic warfare system.

ECM is not a weapon, ECM does not destroy you, therefore how in the world can it be OP? ECM does not destroy people's LRM tubes on sight, it prevents them from firing unless the pilot has a TAG. This means that LRM boats have to go through one extra little step of effort to get their missiles off, OH NOES OP NERF!

My biggest issue with LRM usage is getting my teammates to learn to COUNTER ECM! Some times I have 5 friggin' AS7-D-DC in my group and only one of them wants to be on COUNTER ECM leaving our LRM to say, "Where are the targets?"

[Mackman]

zraven7, on 13 February 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

While I can see your point, I tend to think any section with it's armor stripped becomes a damage magnet, regardless of the components inside. Once the section the AC20 is in is stripped of armor, people will shoot at it because of armor, not because they wanna destroy the AC20. They shot at the AC20 while it had armor because of the AC20. Increasing the guns hp would really change that.

It would let it last a little bit longer. As it is, any solitary hit to that section is almost guaranteed to hit the AC20 itself, as opposed to almost any other weapon that takes up a smaller amount of crit space. That causes the AC20 to die in a matter of seconds, while the torso itself still has quite a bit of health.

[Tank]

[MustrumRidcully]

Bounty Dogg, on 13 February 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

I dont usually participate in threads like this, as they tend to get heated......but Mustrum, I hold your posts in too high esteem to not question this one. You have a good grasp of the in game mechanics, i think, so you know that the way you just described MLs and the AC20 as working in TT is pretty much the same way they work here. The only difference is instead of the laser spread being determined by random chance, its now determined by Pilot steadiness Vs. moving ability of the enemy mech, which, in the case of the 4 MLs that do damage over time, amounts to a similar instance of NOT doing full damage on the same component. Where as the AC 20, just like in TT, is delivering the most SINGLE COMPONENT focused damage in the game to one spot. I'm not taking a stance for or against the OP, but had to address this.

IF you don't hold your laser steady, the damge will spread. If you don't calculate the lead properly, the AC/20 deals no damage at all. I am nots aying the difficulties are exactly equal, but they are similar enough that I consider it a wash. In fact, considering that convergence usually works against you when you lead, I'd say the AC/20 may have a disadvantage.

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

I think the OP makes some good points. There is no place for random mechanics in a competitive game. PGI, are you listening? This game will die if you cant keep hold of the competitive gaming crowd.

[GT Hawk]

Narcisoldier, on 13 February 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

I think the OP makes some good points. There is no place for random mechanics in a competitive game. PGI, are you listening? This game will die if you cant keep hold of the competitive gaming crowd.

Just started gaming yesterday eh, many games have some kind of randomness.

[Volthorne]

Zero Neutral, on 13 February 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Snip

What if I told you that you needed to put a laser pointer on a bow (one that fires arrows) because someone has a little buzzer that makes them immune to arrows otherwise? Oh, and to equip said laser pointer, you need to stop carrying one of the four knives on your person, due to weapon hardpoints. You'd probably tell me to f*** off, because that's not fair, right?

Yeah. Fair. Please, tell me more about how I need to sacrifice defence to make my offence even useful in the first place. I'll stop advocating for ECM nerfs when you stop hiding behind a 1.5 ton piece of godware and screaming "ADAPT!!!11!1ne" every time someone brings up legitimate reasons for ECM being considered broken.

Edited by Volthorne, 13 February 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[Bryan Kerensky]

zraven7, on 13 February 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

*hands you a cookie*

Kerensky would be proud of your grasp of the obvious. :-)

Sarcasm is more often than not discerned by tone. It is difficult to see sarcasm in text so it is not completely obvious and since someone did Sigh at your post, it is not as obvious as you thought it would be.

Narcisoldier, on 13 February 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

I think the OP makes some good points. There is no place for random mechanics in a competitive game. PGI, are you listening? This game will die if you cant keep hold of the competitive gaming crowd.

The competitive crowd is doing well enough with RHOD and no one is complaining. Oh and randomness? How about CS? Although there is a cone spread, it is still pretty arbitrary as to where your bullets will land. If anything it is more random than a someone focusing on your side mounted AC/20.

Edited by Bryan Kerensky, 13 February 2013 - 12:21 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Getting your side torso shot off = "random event"?

[Enig]

Also, 'competitive' shooters still have random bullet spread.

[Ricama]

Zerethon, on 13 February 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

And it's beaten by a 1-ton item that takes up 1 crit slot and i'd use anyways because it lets me focus the damage of my LRM's more usefully.

Can people not use logic?

Besides. I'd be carrying the SRM's and ML anyways because fast mechs of any volition (Dragon, lights, mediums) that can close in to within 180 pretty easy would still be a problem for me even if ECM didn't exist and i could just boat LRM's all day.

I don't like the idea of only having a pair of medium lasers to fend off something that can carry many times that firepower and get close with ease.

No it is not, it is mitigated by a 1 ton 1 slot item that takes up a weapon slot (of a type some missile chuckers don't have). LRMs have the worst damage to cool running heat tonnage in the game, do not allow you to target areas with them, and fire slower than some mechs can run. The only thing that makes them worthwhile is the ability to fire indirectly but with ECM not only do you not have that option, you have to sit there out of cover for the entire 10 seconds it takes for your shots to slowly wander across the battlefield to the target you're holding a targeting laser on.

And yes people can use logic, 75% range + continued loss of functionality =|= negated.

Ooooh, you're advocating not bothering to use LRMs as a solution ... why am I not surprised.

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

Enig, on 13 February 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Also, 'competitive' shooters still have random bullet spread.

Pretty much every competitive shooter has extremely high first shot accuracy and controllable spread.

[Wolfways]

Enig, on 13 February 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Hahaha, okay now I know you're just ******* ********, carry on.

EDIT: My ability to move in a light when someone's about to Guass me is OP, nerf movement because it nullifies some weapons in the hands of a good pilot.

Yeah, because being able to move stops the gauss from being fired at you...

[Bryan Kerensky]

Volthorne, on 13 February 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

What if I told you that you needed to put a laser pointer on a bow (one that fires arrows) because someone has a little buzzer that makes them immune to arrows otherwise? Oh, and to equip said laser pointer, you need to stop carrying one of the four knives on your person, due to weapon hardpoints. You'd probably tell me to f*** off, because that's not fair, right?

Yeah. Fair. Please, tell me more about how I need to sacrifice defence to make my offence even useful in the first place. I'll stop advocating for ECM nerfs when you stop hiding behind a 1.5 ton piece of godware and screaming "ADAPT!!!11!1ne" every time someone brings up legitimate reasons for ECM being considered broken.

Perfect reason why people don't listen to you, is because you don't make sense, and people know how to counter it, they tell you how, and yet people ignore it. Oh yes, your analogy also holds true to AMS, so AMS and that 1 ton of ammo makes me sacrifice weapons and armor, oh I should probably say LRMs and AMS is OP right?

[BLUPRNT]

@OP I believe I may have understood your lengthy worded post as you would like to suggest damage taken to piece of equimpment to be on a gradual scale so that the equipment begins to malfunction or performance degrades as the damage increases rather than just a flat failure. Maybe an occasional misfire in an AC20 as an example. I like the idea.

However, I would like to point out that the thread title is seriously misleading and stating a fact that something in this game sucks. Can I suggest in the future if you want positive creative support for an idea or suggestion you may want to be a bit less misleading and present you thought in a more positve manner. I gather that you may have in the past been not so positive and have created a feeling toward yourself that puts people on the defensive. The human spirit does not like negative input and will often go into a defensive state without realizing it and therefore return with a negative response.

I have my ideas about things in this game that I would like to see them try to implement, but I also know to pick my battles. I have no problem adapting to what the devs have given us to make the game enjoyable for myself.

[MustrumRidcully]

Solis Obscuri, on 13 February 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Getting your side torso shot off = "random event"?

No.

Losing a side torso is not a random event. It's a precisely predictable consequence of getting shot there.
Losing the AC/20 before you lose the side torso - that's a random event.

Mustrum's Alternate non-Random Critical Hit System
When a hit location is reduced to 80 %, 60 % or 30 %, the largest functioning item in that hit location suffers a crit and is damaged, unless it was already damaged, then it's destroyed.
Weapons are disabled for 5 seconds and are damaged. The weapon's cooldown doubles.
A second hit destroys the weapon (Sometimes this may trigger special rules). Damaged Heat Sinks operate at 1/2 dissipation rates. Gauss Rifles and Ammo Bins do not get damaged, they instantly explode.

At 80 %, 50 % and 20 % hit points, the second largest functioning item in that hit location suffers a crit.
At 70 %, 40 % and 10 % hit points, the third largest functioning item in the hit location suffers a crit.
If there is no third or second largest functioning item, the crit goes to the largest functioning item.

Bryan Kerensky made an important point, if items have the same size, which is it:
If there are multiple items that have the same size and might quality for first, second or third place, use this sequence
Heat Sink, Weapon (heaviest first, highest damage first, highest heat first), ECM, BAP, Command Console, Ammunition, highest position in the mech lab view.

Mustrum's Optional non-Random Through-ARmour Critical Hit System
When the armour at a location is lowered below 50 %, the largest functioning item in that hit location suffers a crit.

Mustrum's Take on "Crit-Seeker" weapons
Crit-Seeker weapons simply deal 50 % extra damage against structure.

Mustrum's Limited Random Critical Hit System
Whenever a hit location loses 10 % of its max hit points, one random item (randomization depends on the hit location) in that hit location takes a crit.

No more tracking of item hit points. More predictability. If you really want randomization, you can sitll have it. Also, gradual effects for crits.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 13 February 2013 - 11:47 PM.

[zraven7]

Mackman, on 13 February 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

It would let it last a little bit longer. As it is, any solitary hit to that section is almost guaranteed to hit the AC20 itself, as opposed to almost any other weapon that takes up a smaller amount of crit space. That causes the AC20 to die in a matter of seconds, while the torso itself still has quite a bit of health.

Ah, I see. it's high slot requisite pretty much insures a crit hits it. See I'm torn on this one. From a game mechanic, I can see where you are coming from, and the argument against it. It does almost ensure the destruction of the weapon in use, and makes one not want to equip it. However, it is a horribly damaging, powerful weapon, putting out the highest damage in the game, and it could be argued that it's ease of destruction balances it's amazing damage output.

I honestly can't remember exactly how durable autocannons were supposed to be as far as canon lends. They are extremely old tech, which could lend to them being simple and durable, or fragile and complex to repair.

I don't honestly know if increasing their health would be a good thing. having a 20 damage weapon on a mech that you cant seem to damage would be a little upsetting. Also, decreasing it's slot requirement really would lead to some crazy, crazy builds. I don't want to see a dual-AC20 K2...

I've gotta say, making them fairly easy to destroy has to be the more balanced option here, at least as far as I can see. You still have to tear through the Atlas's armor to get to it, and that's not exactly an easy task. It sucks for the AC20, but the AC20 sucks for whoever it's aimed at, too.

Still, a well thought-out point. I couldn't fault someone for agreeing with you.

Edited by zraven7, 13 February 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[Bryan Kerensky]

MustrumRidcully, on 13 February 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

No.

Losing a side torso is not a random event. It's a precisely predictable consequence of getting shot there.
Losing the AC/20 before you lose the side torso - that's a random event.

Mustrum's Alternate non-Random Critical Hit System
When a hit location is reduced to 80 %, 60 % or 30 %, the largest functioning item in that hit location suffers a crit and is damaged, unless it was already damaged, then it's destroyed.
Weapons are disabled for 5 seconds and are damaged. The weapon's cooldown doubles.
A second hit destroys the weapon (Sometimes this may trigger special rules). Damaged Heat Sinks operate at 1/2 dissipation rates. Gauss Rifles and Ammo Bins do not get damaged, they instantly explode.

At 80 %, 50 % and 20 % hit points, the second largest functioning item in that hit location suffers a crit.
At 70 %, 40 % and 10 % hit points, the third largest functioning item in the hit location suffers a crit.
If there is no third or second largest functioning item, the crit goes to the largest functioning item.

This is already covered under the number of crit slots a weapon takes which is why a gauss rifle is almost guaranteed to be destroyed when the armor in that area is breached. The problem comes in the form of, for example, 3 SRMS in a DDCs left torso. How is the crit calculated for that? Which is the first,second or third largest item? That is where the randomness ensues.

EDIT: I would support this if only it occurs when all armor is stripped from that location.

Edited by Bryan Kerensky, 13 February 2013 - 12:45 PM.