80 replies to this topic

[Josef Nader]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen this suggested.

How would folks feel about "fixing" ECM by simply making it effect all mechs in the ECM bubble the same way as it effects enemy mechs? Theoretically, ECM works by pumping out tons of static into an area that scrambles any and all sensors.

For example:

You are in your ECM Raven. Your map is scrambled, you can't lock on with missiles, you can't bracket/lock on and you're sensor-invisible to friend and foe. Your Jenner buddy is with you. His map is also scrambled, he can't lock on with missiles, he can't bracket, and he's sensor invisible to friend and foe. You sneak up on an enemy Awesome, and the Awesome's map is scrambled, he can't lock on with missiles, he can't bracket, and he's sensor invisible to friend or foe.

Get the idea? It does the same thing for everyone in the radius. Whether or not this is good or bad is entirely up to your ability to make it as such. Yes, you're invisible to sensors and you can hide teammates or make enemies "vanish" from friendly radar. In return, you and anyone else in your bubble operate under the same limitations, because static is indescriminant and I envision ECM as working by simply vomiting up a huge amount of junk sensor data in a set area. This should overwhelm your sensors, your allies sensors, and your enemies sensors equally.

It still has a useful tactical component (very useful!), but it's balanced by some pretty severe hindrances. Seems like the most straightforward fix to me.

Edited by Josef Nader, 13 February 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[zverofaust]

Technically ECM usually takes the form of equipment designed to jam specific methods of locking-on in use by various weapons systems in a more direct way; they aren't really used as an area-of-effect "bubble" but rather disruptive signals being sent towards a target that prevent it from receiving proper control or guidance information. More mundane methods like chaff or flares are designed to fool the guidance computers of incoming missiles locked onto the aircraft by hiding the targeted vehicle behind fake signals and would have no affect on the ability of a friendly plane from locking onto an enemy plane.

[Stormwolf]

Just make it as described in the TT fluff/rules, it'll be fine.

[Daiichidoku]

ECM is broken?

[Zero Neutral]

I think that ECM is fine as it is and that it is the most valuable piece of equipment that contributes to the electronic warfare system.

Proper use of all counter-ECM features adds depth to game play and separates good pilots from great ones.

Edited by Zero Neutral, 13 February 2013 - 12:58 PM.

[zverofaust]

Stormwolf, on 13 February 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Just make it as described in the TT fluff/rules, it'll be fine.

That's literally the worst possible thing you could do. If you want a straight 1:1 translation of TT rules into a computer game please go and play Mechwarrior: Tactics.

I for one would like to see PGI flex some creative muscle in this regard and come up with a system that has actual gameplay value (which it currently does not).

Edited by zverofaust, 13 February 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[Kyone Akashi]

zverofaust, on 13 February 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

That's literally the worst possible thing you could do.

Why? Please elaborate. I agree with Stormwolf's suggestion.

[BLUPRNT]

I think your suggestion is a good one as it reflects a downside of having it as well. I don't believe it is the ultimate fix but I would guess we would see alot less of them on the field. Or TKing would go up (a death to all ECM witch hunt would ensue).

[Josef Nader]

I'm one of the most ardent supporters of "ECM is fine leave it alone," but even I have to relent that ECM/Streak combos dominate the light mech circuit. This suggestion removes literally none of the functionality of the ECM while simultaneously adding a greater degree of skill required to play an ECM mech effectively. Greater skill and depth is almost always a good thing, IMHO, and it would make ECM lights a powerful tool but less dominant in light-on-light fights.

[Lootee]

No. All they need to do to fix ECM is remove the area effect klingon cloaking device. Make it so only the mech that has ECM is shielded from sensors at long range.

Keep the artemis, narc negation for all friendly units within 180m. Keep the increased missile lock times against friendly units inside the bubble.

Now it's balanced. ECM shields friendly units from advanced electronics and provides a little protection against lock on weapons. It will still allow the mech it is mounted on to sneak around and scout. It won't be area effect nullsigguardianamgelchameleonstealth armor that breaks the game while weighing only as much as a heatsink and small laser. But it will still be worth having if you can mount it.

[Nightcrept]

Haven't u heard ecm isn't broken at all...cough...cough...4 man ecm raven pre-mades ...cough...cough.

[Znail]

Personally so don't I see any problem with simply changing the ECM to work like in the TT. Possibly give it a slight edge in preventing locks by reducing detection range from 800 to 600 (compared with the current 800 to 200).

The problem seems to be that the devs used ECM as some kind of means to balance LRMs, which is stupid. It might help with reducing the number of people who uses LRMs and thus 'improve' the statistics the devs are looking at, but it does nothing to actually balance LRMs. It just makes the team that has ECM and LRMs own the other team easy mode.

They need to simply rethink balance of LRMs. The way they have done it right now is to buff the damage of LRMs compared with the TT with 70% to make them usefull despite doubling armour on mechs. But this makes LRMs do a lot more damage with each salvo compared to other weapons. What I think they should do is to remove that bonus damage and instead buff the number of missiles you get with each ton of ammo, doubling it works. That way the LRMs would not be useless, but would require more time to do their work.

Edited by Znail, 13 February 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[Zero Neutral]

PanchoTortilla, on 13 February 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

No. All they need to do to fix ECM is remove the area effect klingon cloaking device. Make it so only the mech that has ECM is shielded from sensors at long range.

Keep the artemis, narc negation for all friendly units within 180m. Keep the increased missile lock times against friendly units inside the bubble.

Now it's balanced. ECM shields friendly units from advanced electronics and provides a little protection against lock on weapons. It will still allow the mech it is mounted on to sneak around and scout. It won't be area effect nullsigguardianamgelchameleonstealth armor that breaks the game while weighing only as much as a heatsink and small laser. But it will still be worth having if you can mount it.

What exactly is your problem with the cloak? How does that adversely affect you?

Your team should be countering the enemy ECM and negating the cloak when the battle begins.

Znail, on 13 February 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

Personally so don't I see any problem with simply changing the ECM to work like in the TT. Possibly give it a slight edge in preventing locks by reducing detection range from 800 to 600.

The problem seems to be that the devs used ECM as some kind of means to balance LRMs, which is stupid. It might help with reducing the number of people why uses LRMs and thus 'improve' the statistics the devs are looking at, but it does nothing to actually balance LRMs. It just makes the team that has ECM and LRMs own the other team easy mode.

They need to simply rethink balance of LRMs. The way they have done it right now is to buff the damage of LRMs compared with the TT with 70% to make them usefull despite doubling armour on mechs. But this makes LRMs do a lot more damage with each salvo compared to other weapons. What I think they should do is to remove that bonus damage and instead buff the number of missiles you get with each ton of ammo, doubling it works. That way the LRMs would not be useless, but would require more time to do their work.

ECM is not around to balance LRMs... that is a fallacy.

[Josef Nader]

PanchoTortilla, on 13 February 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

No. All they need to do to fix ECM is remove the area effect klingon cloaking device. Make it so only the mech that has ECM is shielded from sensors at long range.

Keep the artemis, narc negation for all friendly units within 180m. Keep the increased missile lock times against friendly units inside the bubble.

Now it's balanced. ECM shields friendly units from advanced electronics and provides a little protection against lock on weapons. It will still allow the mech it is mounted on to sneak around and scout. It won't be area effect nullsigguardianamgelchameleonstealth armor that breaks the game while weighing only as much as a heatsink and small laser. But it will still be worth having if you can mount it.

I think that ECM is fine the way it is, honestly, I just think it's too good in light-on-light fights. This negates that "too good" while still offering a super powerful team tool (which is what I like so much about ECM) that is still worth bringing and using on a regular basis. It simply forces players to be more thoughtful and skillful in their applications of ECM outside of "push button, receive candy."

[Zero Neutral]

Josef Nader, on 13 February 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

I'm one of the most ardent supporters of "ECM is fine leave it alone," but even I have to relent that ECM/Streak combos dominate the light mech circuit. This suggestion removes literally none of the functionality of the ECM while simultaneously adding a greater degree of skill required to play an ECM mech effectively. Greater skill and depth is almost always a good thing, IMHO, and it would make ECM lights a powerful tool but less dominant in light-on-light fights.

This is a huge problem, imo. ECM/SSRM combination really limits the choices for light mech pilots. There is a clear distinction between a light mech that has ECM/SSRM and a light mech that has SSRM but no ECM, or, ECM and no SSRM... The light mechs with ECM/SSRM simply dominate others of the same class without BOTH of those systems.

I am eager to see how this will be addressed.

[Ryokens leap]

Break ECM up into 2 or 3 separate components, increase weight, crit slots needed and heat output. This would be a move to damper the ECM hunter/ killer light mech "issue". The Raven was meant to be an electronic warfare platform, not a hunter/ killer.

[Josef Nader]

Again, everyone generally agrees that the powerful combination is ECM and Streaks. If we removed the streaks from the Raven without removing ANY OTHER FUNCTIONALITY (replacing them with SRM2s or 4s), we have a balanced, interesting, useful light mech. Enemy lights can't streak it down, but it can't streak them down either, so it becomes a big delicious light furball where the most skilled player wins.

[Zero Neutral]

Ryokens leap, on 13 February 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

Break ECM up into 2 or 3 separate components, increase weight, crit slots needed and heat output. This would be a move to damper the ECM hunter/ killer light mech "issue". The Raven was meant to be an electronic warfare platform, not a hunter/ killer.

Forcing ECM to take any more crit slots or weight makes it impossible to equip on light mechs. Only the heaviest mechs could use it and only at a severe gimping to their damage out put or heat scaling.

Edited by Zero Neutral, 13 February 2013 - 01:15 PM.

[zverofaust]

Kyone Akashi, on 13 February 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Why? Please elaborate. I agree with Stormwolf's suggestion.

Just think about it for a moment.

You want to take a feature that was designed for a turn-based, tabletop miniature strategy game 30 years ago,

and apply it to a real-time, 2013 casual online F2P competitive multiplayer team-based simulator/shooter.

[Zero Neutral]

Josef Nader, on 13 February 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

Again, everyone generally agrees that the powerful combination is ECM and Streaks. If we removed the streaks from the Raven without removing ANY OTHER FUNCTIONALITY (replacing them with SRM2s or 4s), we have a balanced, interesting, useful light mech. Enemy lights can't streak it down, but it can't streak them down either, so it becomes a big delicious light furball where the most skilled player wins.

People mostly hate on ECM because they think that it's ECM that is killing them, when really, it's the SSRM that is killing them.

The SSRM monopoly adds a great deal of hatred to ECM, but people don't realize that it's not the fault of ECM. When only certain light mechs can use SSRM, (those who also have ECM,) and SSRM are the most powerful weapon for use on light mechs, those people who die in their other light mechs will blame ECM and not the SSRM monopoly. It's a knee jerk reaction to blame ECM, since it's the popular thing to do.

Edited by Zero Neutral, 13 February 2013 - 01:16 PM.