18 replies to this topic

[2metragluposti]

Hi,

I just started the game and have been playing it for about 4 hours and I have some questions.

Since I am still playing with Trial Mechs, Medium and Heavy only, I have to ask, aside for my lack of skills, are they (Catapult and Cicada) underpowered and squishy, or I just have a poor grasp of the game?

I have a feeling that I am dealing no damage with Heavy - I hit an enemy in a close fight with 2 PPC and 2 Medium lasers and he dropped like 5% HP. Heat is an issue if I'm using PPC and Lasers, if I'm not, it feels as if I'm not even damaging the opponent. Guns seem to do NO damage at all...

On the other side, Cicada dies no matter how good I hide or outrun a heavier mech, especially if long range PPC or stuff like that hits me...

So all in all, is it all me, or are Trial Mechs also the problem here?

Edited by 2metragluposti, 13 February 2013 - 02:03 PM.

[nuzgundam]

It's probably a little bit of both, honestly.

For once, the trial mechs are notoriously terrible, generally because of poor weapon choices and really terrible heat management. It's something you can work past with a lot of experience with the game, but newcomers tend to do pretty poorly. It's all part of the learning curve, but the thing is honestly less of a curve than it is a brick wall.

On the other hand, there's also some things you did wrong. For example, the PPCs. Did you know that PPCs have a minimum range? They do. Their thing is that they're a long range sniper weapon, and should be treated as such. The Medium Lasers are there for when enemy mechs get within the PPCs minimum range.

So chin up, keep at it. Things get so much better when you finally pick your first mech for yourself.

[2metragluposti]

nuzgundam, on 13 February 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

It's probably a little bit of both, honestly.

For once, the trial mechs are notoriously terrible, generally because of poor weapon choices and really terrible heat management. It's something you can work past with a lot of experience with the game, but newcomers tend to do pretty poorly. It's all part of the learning curve, but the thing is honestly less of a curve than it is a brick wall.

On the other hand, there's also some things you did wrong. For example, the PPCs. Did you know that PPCs have a minimum range? They do. Their thing is that they're a long range sniper weapon, and should be treated as such. The Medium Lasers are there for when enemy mechs get within the PPCs minimum range.

So chin up, keep at it. Things get so much better when you finally pick your first mech for yourself.

That's the thing - on 1v1 medium to close combat, Lasers and Machineguns just seem so weak for a heavy mech, and I can barely destory a medium mech, and I do 1% damage to Assaults...

Slightly OT, but every now and then, I get pummeled by PPC from afar, yet I can't target the enemy, I don't even see the mech - I undrestand the scout and rocket thing, but how is this happening? If I am inside PPC range, I should be able to target him, no?

Edited by 2metragluposti, 13 February 2013 - 02:21 PM.

[nungunz]

Your sensors have a range of 800m. Beagle Active Probe and Advanced Sensor Range give you a bonus to the sensor range.

If the enemy is being protected by ECM you cannot target them unless you are within 200 meters.


The K2 is a great mech, just stock it isn't the best.

Edited by nungunz, 13 February 2013 - 02:29 PM.

[2metragluposti]

But PPC has range of 512m and I still can't see. Since it happens occasionally I presume people are using the same Trial mech with no extended range PPC, so I should be able to see them if they can hit me.

Secondly, so I have a heavy mech that has one long range decent damage weapon, one medium range with medium damage, and close combat weak machine gun, am I correct?

[Stringburka]

The trial cicada is utterly horrible. As in, don't use it, period. It has nearly half the armor and nearly half the weaponry of the trial light 'mech, and no jump-jets, so if you want to try an agile 'mech, go for the trial Jenner. The catapult K2 is quite good as is for a trial 'mech, just try to stay out of melee - hang back and snipe with the PPC's. Shoot them one after the other unless you get a really good opportunity (stillstanding atlas with it's back to you), then you fire both for massive damage. Note that PPC's hardly work below 90 meters.

With the Jenner, I'd recommend hanging around either other lights or a heavy/assault, and try to flank whatever they are fighting. Don't run out scouting alone, at least not until you're more confident as a pilot and know the map layouts better.

EDIT: *********, it didn't save my edit.
For the K2 weapons, consider them like this:
2xPPC: Mid-to-long range sniper rifle, main weapon. A shot from these together deals 20 damage up to 540 meters, and 10 damage at 810 meters. Cannot be used at close range. Rely on these, hang back sniping (but don't stand alone!).
2xMedium Lasers: Short-range support weapon. A second of firing these do 10 damage. Use them on enemies below 300 meters while at the same time backing of to find protection (preferably teammates).
2xMachine Guns: Face-hugging backscratcher. A second of firing these do 0.8 damage [sic!]. They don't give any heat though, so if the enemy tries to hump your front, just hold them down and they get an annoying sound in their cockpit. Or forget them completely and focus on learning the actual weapons.

Edited by Stringburka, 13 February 2013 - 04:36 PM.

[qki]

A couple of things.

Minimum range - like it was said earlier - within 90 meters, a PPC will do ZERO damage. Machineguns are a waste of space.

ECM may be preventing you from targeting the enemy mech. Try using thermal vision (H key) - it will allow you to see the 'mechs better. If they don't have a blue triangle above their head (indicating that they are friendly), then friendly they are not - fire away.


One HUGE difference between MWO and games like Call of Duty is damage. In CoD, or Battlefield, you can kill someone in short order with a knife, or a pistol. Here, it is directly related to how much shooty stuf your mech is carrying.

A lone mechwarrior is easy prey, so stay with the group. Above all, resist the urge to "get into combat, right NOW!" - stay close to the heavies, and target the same 'mechs they target.

The first step towards playing well is to realize, that it's not possible to "surprise PWN the enemy" in this game. Not alone. Stay with the group, and focus fire on the same targets. Did I mention staying with the group?

[2metragluposti]

Thank you both.

@QKI: Yes, I am learning to stick with the group, although not charging into the battle, brings dishonor and shame to my family. I think I will have many unslept nights because of this, and will probably turn to drugs.

@Stringburka: I expected Heavy Mech = good for overall combat, but Trial Heavy = armored snipers as I see it, and you explained it...

Might I just ask for a simple "_____ Heavy Mech with _____ weapons" example? I kinda fancy something with rockets and one laser just in case I run out of rockets. Or am I horribly wrong and should never use my computer ever again for suggesting this?

Edited by 2metragluposti, 13 February 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[Stringburka]

The trial 'mechs vary by weeks, to not only let new players test 'mechs but to also allow those who've played for a while to test something new once in a while without spending millions of c-bills. Most heavy 'mechs are more melee focused - right now, the heavy 'mechs in the game are the Dragon, the Cataphract and the Catapult. The catapult is intended as long-range support (the K2 that is trial right now through sniping, the other catapults through being missile artillery) but both the Dragon and Cataphract are more intended for varied/melee combat.

For a big brawler, you wanna go with the trial atlas. Getting hang of all the weapon groups can take some time, but it can deal some serious damage. But even among the assault class 'mechs, there is a "support" 'mech, the Awesome, which can do close combat but is mainly focused for heavy long-range support.

EDIT: Also, when you've gotten a 'mech you can adjust it's purpose quite well - if you buy a catapult K2 you could switch the machine guns for heavy ballistics weaponry and downgrade your PPC's to more medium lasers, getting a competent close-range 'mech. Likewise, should you buy the Cicada that is currently useless as a trial 'mech you could increase both it's armor and weaponry a LOT (from 2 medium lasers to 6!) by switching to a lighter (more expensive) engine and upgrading it's structure.

Edited by Stringburka, 13 February 2013 - 04:34 PM.

[nungunz]

2metragluposti, on 13 February 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Might I just ask for a simple "_____ Heavy Mech with _____ weapons" example? I kinda fancy something with rockets and one laser just in case I run out of rockets. Or am I horribly wrong and should never use my computer ever again for suggesting this?

Catapult-C4 with 4 SRMs/Streaks and two lasers if you're set on a heavy mech

[2metragluposti]

nungunz, on 13 February 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Catapult-C4 with 4 SRMs/Streaks and two lasers if you're set on a heavy mech

Actually, I just built that

[Wolfclaw]

Regular PPC's have a MINIMUM range of 90 meters. ER PPC's have no MINIMUM range.

[CECILOFS]

Yeah sadly the trial K2 is garbage. It would be great if the heat/armour system wasn't borked and MG dealt some damage. Sadly those two things are not true, so it only shines when you can customise it with big ACs or more heat sinks for the PPCs.

The only real generalisation for mech weights is: The heavier the more weaponry and armour but the slower you go. Beyond that different mechs fit different roles.

If you are looking for an all-rounder, go with the Hunchback, Cataphract or Atlas. They tend to have a good mix of laser/ballistic/missiles as well as arms to help with brawling. Catapults are for fire-support either with missiles or sniper weapons.

That said, all mechs at the moment do well by following this formula, since with ECM most matches quickly devolve into close range brawls:

Energy Hardpoint: Medium Laser
Missile Hardpoint: SRM6
Ballistic Hardpoint: Biggest AC you can fit.

[John MatriX82]

Yes, usually few of the stock trial mech builds are decent, most of the time you've not only terrible heat efficiency, bad weapon choices, lack of ammo but also bad displacement of the equipment and even lack of armor.

I suggest to go here http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

And click on the actual trial mechs to learn a bit their configuration. The K2 for instance, it's horrible as others said, machineguns are a joke, your main PPCs only have 810 max range, full damage range halts at 450 and if you use them below 90m they don't do much damage at all. Look at the armor values, you lack half a ton of armor in your CT.. they are horrible indeed.

They are soo poor that between those 4 I can't really suggest which one to use. Simply try to end the pain, take advantage of the cadet bonus (it lasts after 25 matches) and instantly build up a new owned mech.


If you like mediums I'd suggest to go with a HBK 4SP. Something like this should stay right within the cadet bonus budget:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...98806e442037e30

Otherwise if you want to save up some money and avoid spending it in the 250 STD engine you can keep the original 200, just upgrade the smlas to mlas and buy only the DHS upgrade:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a779dc5437c0259

It's a tad slow since you'll need to close in to take advantage of the dual SRM6, but having 5 mlasers with a good cooling should ease the limited speed.

[Sylow]

nungunz, on 13 February 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Your sensors have a range of 800m.  Beagle Active Probe and Advanced Sensor Range give you a bonus to the sensor range.  

If the enemy is being protected by ECM you cannot target them unless you are within 200 meters.

With all this being true, one more thing shall be noted: for long distance combat you should use heat vision. This allows you to see and fire at an enemy long before you could see him on regular vision and before your sensors can lock on him.

qki, on 13 February 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

Minimum range - like it was said earlier - within 90 meters, a PPC will do ZERO damage.

While many people say so, this statement still is wrong. The weapon which actually does zero damage below minimum range are LRMs. They don't arm unless they ran their minumum range and explode once reaching their maximum range and thus can't leave range envelope in either direction. PPCs on the other hand behave like energy or ballistic weapons. Beyond their official maximum range they deal reduced damage, and specifically for the PPC, the damage also is reduced below their minimum range. Still, while damage is reduced, it is not zero. (PPCs do deal damage even at point blank range, although the effect indeed is insignificant. )  

So indeed, if you are firing your PPCs at a target at 50 meters range, you have a terribly bad heat efficiency, as your PPCs still create full heat for reduced damage. There might be some situations where firing your PPCs below minumum range might be the correct thing to do. Just imagine the 6xSRM6 CAT at 50 meters, its CT deep red, and probably ready to destroy you in two seconds, while your lasers are still recharging. Your PPCs might just be the punch you need in this situation, despite their damage being reduced.That being said, unless the situation is desperate or heat is no issue for you at that moment, PPCs should not be fired at targets much closer than 90 meters.  

And on the two trial mechs by themselves: the K2 Catapult, even as trial mech, is a good machine when deployed properly and used with an eye on the heat gauge. The cicada, on the other hand, is just an oversized (and in most basic variants underperforming) light mech. When owned and modified, it can be made a great "light", while most variants refuse to be adjusted to be a proper medium. Without modifications, it's no fun, though, so the trial version is best avoided.

Edit: formating. Could we please have a reasonable editor and display of the posts again? Quoting is terrible since the forum was changed...

Edited by Sylow, 14 February 2013 - 04:10 AM.

[Gregore]

Also, if you press backspace on a weapon group (1-6) this will make that group flash and it will then fire those weapons one at a time. This is good to control heat. It makes your damage splash a bit as you are firing separate shots, but your heat will be under better control.

As above, thermal vision is your friend. True it makes the game ugly, but at least you can see what you are doing, and whom you are doing.

Also for long range you can zoom in with the z button.

One more thing, don't give too much credence to the health percent of a mech. It is a general guideline showing how much total health the mech has over its entire body.
So it's core could be 1 shot away from exploding and still show 75-80% health.
Focus more on the paperdoll of the targeted mech in the upper right corner. It will show you the damaged parts of the mech and where you should be shooting for maximum efficiency.

[2metragluposti]

Thank you kind sirs.

I hope you aren't that kind on the battlefield tho

[Adridos]

Just adding here that the percentual damage doesn't matter all that much.

The thing is, to down a mech you either have to: destroy his cockpit/ central torso/ both legs. Destroying anything more is optional, but included in the overall HP of the mech. So, say I kill an enemy Atlas by a headshot (destroyed cockpit), if he was alive, his HP would still be above 90%, but it would be of no use to him. The same goes for every mech and the percentual HP is only useful when you want to know in what kind of shape your friendlies are (since you can't target them to see the individual sections).

[Tesunie]

qki, on 13 February 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

A couple of things. Minimum range - like it was said earlier - within 90 meters, a PPC will do ZERO damage.

Incorrect. They do massively less damage, but it scales as they get closer. So someone at 80m is getting more damage than someone that is at 20m. It still does damage, just not enough to warrant the heat produced, unless you are desperate.

Besides missiles, all other weapons can cause damage outside their recommended range, just less. Missiles have set ranges and nothing if fired outside that range.

The Cicada 3C is a hard mech to customize and work with, but the other Cicadas work well. Try a little of everything and find what works for you. If you want a buddy, friends me in game and we can team up. I'll cover your back while you learn. (To do this, go to the social tab at the bottom right corner of the game screen. In the friends tab, you type in my name to invite me to your friends list. once there and I accept the friends invite, you will be able to see when I an on. If I'm on, you can in game talk to me by double clicking my name. A messenger screen well open up and we can type to each other.)

I won't be on till later tonight, but offer is always there.

Edited by Tesunie, 14 February 2013 - 01:32 PM.