199 replies to this topic

[Dendrobium]

Gallowglas, on 13 February 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

If you can walk backwards while bending your knees, I think it's equally possible that a mech with gyrostabilizers of some sort could do so. It might not be ideal, but the basic reality check is that mech physics don't work anyway. Anything that big likely wouldn't be able to stay upright regardless of how their legs were positioned. That's not even taking into consideration the complete military impracticality of the whole thing.

I'm going to attack the bolded part in a gundam point of view as my knowledge of mecha battle tactics stems from that (sorry guys, flame me if you want for it.)

Let's start with radar, sight and the tactics they impart. Now, when it comes to radar, satelite and the like. In the Gundam universe, there is the Minovsky effect. This effect is the result of the compact fusion reactors that power the mobile suits in the universe. The release of those particles (which btw, happen to exist in our universe when a real fusion reactor is used) inhibit radar, digital picture photography (satelite, camera, ect) and long range communications which rely on digital signals. The more dense the particals, the more they inhibit the signals and, the longer they stay in the area. They slowly dissipate over time, taking hours for a high concentration. Without those particals and, with a functional radar, a mecha style peice of equipment is a giant tomb. A waste of money and, I agree, a military waste of money. In a battle with a high concentration, they rely on sonar, heat and analog optics to both navigate and find the enemy.

In a strictly militaristic point of view IF there is a limited view of the battle field there is an advantage to having a mecha style battle suit on the field. It is essentially a mobile Lego man (anyone remember the cartoon Centurions? lol), capable of being able to configure for any type of battle. You want artillery? You got it! You want a close up fire support? You got it! You get the picture.

A bi-pedal mecha is also highly mobile and, capable of going over A LOT of different types of terrain. Many more then treaded, wheeled, reverse (chicken) legged and even quad legged. You can traverse very steep terrain and, with the help of small burners, can even do steeper terrain still. You can do steps, go underwater, in swamps, over rocks, in snow, ect. Bi-pedal is much more of a do all then most any other motion type, save but hover or levitation. Which is not available to either Battletech/Mechwarrior or the Gundam Universe. Note that the Dom mobile suits don't actually have hover capability, they use verniar(sp?) burners in the feet to achieve thier "hover". The same applies to anything else you see "hover" in the Gundam universe.

[Fekklar]

I realize most of you guys are young and have not been exposed to the original background concerning Battletech and the like. Mechs have fibers in their legs that react to electrical charge which causes them to contract just like muscles do. This material really exists and has been refined in the real world for real world application. Best example i can give comes from a movie "Batman Dark Knight". His cape used the material mentioned to become ridged.

Same concept applies to mechs. Those fibers are electrically charged by the fusion reactor every mech has to contract those fibers in the legs.

As far as reverse knees and joints are concerned -- there are many examples in nature of this being an effecient form of locomotion. Grasshoppers and chickens are two examples. The Gyros then do their job at maintaining balance. Your mech gets hit in the Gyro and you will have trouble keeping the mech upright. As of yet -- I have not seen them incorporate this into the game. I think they should but it is a critical hit and should be difficult to do.

I hope this helps -- I realize I am an old man now, but i have seen the tech from this game become more and more refined in my life time. Good luck in the battlefields of the future my young ones. You may see real mechs coming to a real militaries near you in the future.

[Magicbullet141]

Ever heard of fly-by-wire? It works similarly.

[StandingCow]

Gyroscopes.

[ferranis]

This thread is awesome. Just saying.
Nice paint images, Ostriches, chicken legs, gundam, awesome robots, awesome dudes kicking awesome robots, lego mindstorms! You got it all.

Edited by ferranis, 13 February 2013 - 05:20 PM.

[Tuku]

Take the catapult, center of gravity further forward over the feet .

[urmamasllama]

i just want to point out boston dynamics is making the foundation for robots and mecha right now. raytheon is making the basis for power armor and is most likely already selling their tech to the military for non combat use www.youtube.com/watch?v=mclbVTIYG8E

Edited by urmamasllama, 14 February 2013 - 06:48 AM.

[AlexEss]

Well this is how they do it.. if it would work in the real world.. who knows.

[Gralzeim]

Night Rider, on 13 February 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

one might also wonder how the ammo in mech leg travels to the weapon in the arm ?

Technically, ammo isn't supposed to be stored in the legs, it's usually in the torso, and fed to the arms via fast and reliable ammunition feeds. (like fancy conveyor belts, essentially) But MWO (and past MW games) allow us to put ammo wherever, even if it's kinda silly. (I'm going to store a ton of LRM ammo in my cockpit behind me! This is the best plan.)

As far as the whole "how do they walk" bit, also factor in that BattleMechs are using materials that are much lighter weight than things that we currently use in military vehicles. Something as huge as an Atlas with a 200+ mm cannon, multiple missile launchers, high powered lasers, a fusion reactor, coolant systems, plus the frame and armor...only weighs 100 tons? The heaviest WWII tanks weighed over 60 tons.

They clearly have far more advanced materials technology in the 31st century. I'm sure that's a huge factor in why 'mechs don't fall flat on their faces when they try to walk, let alone -run-. xD

Edited by Gralzeim, 13 February 2013 - 05:40 PM.

[Soda Popinsky]

Oy of MidWorld, on 13 February 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

No you have four too... Most people just don't know how animals with chicken-walker legs move. They walk on their toes. We just percieve those as their feet.

Unless you walk on your toes, functionally, you have 3 leg parts (according to the OP diagram).

[Hawkeye 72]

I am working this out on paper as we speak (won't finish until later tonight but my prof for matrix methods of aerospace structures would be proud), but from what I am looking at right now these mechs can walk just fine.

You need to treat the foot as a fourth point of articulation, giving the whole leg 4 joints total. The theoretical myomer muscles in the joints would provide the force to shift the body of the mech forward and allow it translation motion forward. I'm speculating even with 3 joints and 2 degrees of freedom for rotation would still allow you to walk.

I'll be back later with science

[BlackSquirrel]

Like magnets.. How the **** do those work?

[TheMadTypist]

Ah, but you see, the chicken-legged 'mechs don't walk...

they strut!

[Vanguard319]

I wouldn't consider a gundam a good example, since they often use boosters rather than run. Also, a thirty foot tall robot would be easy prey for the first air strike directed at it.


Gasaraki on the other hand, is a much better example. For one thing, they're described in series as being around 4m tall and weigh in around 5 metric tons. They actually have artificial muscles, just like battlemechs, (the size makes them more like protomechs though.) and they are supposed to have no equal in urban combat. If we ever field piloted giant robots in war, they would probably look alot like this.


Another scene from the same series.

[Steven Dixon]

Bonerlord420, on 13 February 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

Reverse legged mechs don't make sense to me I drew a helpful diagram here it is:

http://imgur.com/vWc1iEt


How do mechs walk what does what and where are their parts? I don't get it it's like, how do they move anywhere instead of just up and falling on their faces? It doesn't make sense to me maybe gyros??

Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. And yes FlyingDebris is a wizard.

Edited by Steven Dixon, 13 February 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[Ialti]

How does a fish swim or a bumble bee buzz, or a platypus even exist? Find the answers to these questions first. Especially that last one.

[Vulkan]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Myomer

[SpiralRazor]

Bonerlord420, on 13 February 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Do you see the problem I have here? The Timber Wolf is missing like, a whole essential leg part

(it's the one between the hip and the knee)

The people who drew them werent engineers....or ornithologists bro.

[Zero Neutral]

How do mechs walk but some of these guys don't?

[Dendrobium]

Vanguard319, on 13 February 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

I wouldn't consider a gundam a good example, since they often use boosters rather than run. Also, a thirty foot tall robot would be easy prey for the first air strike directed at it.


Gasaraki on the other hand, is a much better example. For one thing, they're described in series as being around 4m tall and weigh in around 5 metric tons. They actually have artificial muscles, just like battlemechs, (the size makes them more like protomechs though.) and they are supposed to have no equal in urban combat. If we ever field piloted giant robots in war, they would probably look alot like this.


Another scene from the same series.

I used Gundam not for mechanical terms, but for tactical. Reread what I posted, if you were directing to me. The suits in Gundam use a system of pistons and magnetic joints to control the leg movements. As well as the boosters you mentioned. So, yes, apples and oranges on the actual mechanical movements. It does have it advantages and, I would imagine it would probably be the first stage [mechanically] that we would take if/when we go the mobile suit/armor route for our armed forces. I don't see that happening anytime soon though. The progression to mobile suits in Gundam happened in space first on the colonies. They used the suits as, for lack of a better comparison, tractors/forklifts. The hands (called manipulators in the Gundam universe) came about as they were the best way to handle things in space.

I can go on as to why they used them later but that would turn into a whole history on the battle of the colonies vs the Earth forces. I don't think a MW board wants to read up on that. Again, my post was on TACTICAL use of mechs, not mechanicals.