34 replies to this topic

[Desist]

I think it'd do fairly well as a support mech. I have 30 LRMs and tag on my Atlas-D and I can take out ECM Atlai fairly easy. Number 1 is because most Atlai are brawlers and they're usually engaging my team or just out in the open trying to get from point A to point B. Tag plus LRMs do work. If you're good you might even manage to take out ECM lights with the tag LRM combo.

The K would differ from my D in that it has 10 less LRMs, but more potential long range damage with the addition of large lasers plus gauss. So if my D and K were dueling the K would win. The K would take slightly more damage from LRMs, but the K's extra long range weaponry would put it ahead easily.

A pure LRM boat is less effective imo, because of the ever more common boating of ballistics and PPCs. By the time you get a lock on anything you've been sniped soooo many times. And on top of that they can then just move into cover before your LRMs even get close. This is also a huge reason I think that the Atlas is one of the better LRM boats, because it can actually take the damage to get those LRMs out. You just have to make it a point to not fire LRMs at people near cover.

Edited by Desist, 14 February 2013 - 03:10 PM.

[Hex Pallett]

Desist, on 14 February 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

This is also a huge reason I think that the Atlas is one of the better LRM boats, because it can actually take the damage to get those LRMs out. You just have to make it a point to not fire LRMs at people near cover.

Yeah right heavy armor LRM boat blah blah blah. You know what else Atlas is good for? Tanking the damage during brawling instead of your smaller teammates.

BRAWLIN ALL DA WAY

[Desist]

Helmstif, on 14 February 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Yeah right heavy armor LRM boat blah blah blah. You know what else Atlas is good for? Tanking the damage during brawling instead of your smaller teammates.

BRAWLIN ALL DA WAY

You're gonna be tanking damage regardless. You've got a crapload of firepower. If they don't take you down, you kill them all. Any real brawler is going to take down an AS7-K regardless.

The best Brawling build submitted so far has an astounding 48 damage alpha. You should know that the best brawlers have alphas that do 70-90 damage alphas, some of them have similar armor and are actually faster. You can make a Dragon that has a 48 damage alpha and moves almost twice as fast as the AS7-k. The best "brawling" build I could make on the K comes out around a 60-65 damage alpha with various weapon layouts, but is slower than most of the other brawlers. Once someone pops off that AC/20 and most likely your whole right arm, you have considerably less firepower. And most likely they'll pop yours before you pop theirs.

So I guess if you want to be unique and inferior to most other brawlers go ahead and brawl with the AS7-K. I have nothing against it. I'm just saying you'd probably have more fun brawling with one of the other Atlai that can actually put out some decent damage.

Edited by Desist, 14 February 2013 - 10:56 PM.

[Hex Pallett]

Desist, on 14 February 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

So I guess if you want to be unique and inferior to most other brawlers go ahead and brawl with the AS7-K. I have nothing against it. I'm just saying you'd probably have more fun brawling with one of the other Atlai that can actually put out some decent damage.

Alpha damage Alpha damage blah blah blah. How much brawl have you been doing lately? Not much, I assume?

Let's do some comparison. I shall first present you my most proud creation DDC: STD350, 15DHS, 1xAC20(3ton), 2xMPL, 3xArtemisSRM4(2ton), and of course ECM. A "mere" 62-Alpha build.

Average damage per match (roughly): 600. Good-day damage after match: 1000+.

You see, the point of brawling is not how much damage you can Alpha, but how much damage you can consistently put out before your armor runs out, AND how much damage your TEAMMATE could deal during that period.

Now let's go back to my 7-K. A even more humbled 48-Alpha build. However, the LLas allow me to start putting out damage a good few hundred meters away, not mentioning the unholy base damage of the AC20 dealing still significant punches well beyond the effective range.

All. On. One. Spot. If your target is big enough. Like, say, another Atlas.

[Ravennus]

But Helmstif... that's what he is saying. If you want to brawl, the other Atlai do it better.

Unfortunately, most do the long distance support better as well.
DDC can do it with ECM and 3 Missile Hardpoints.
RS can do it with 4 arm mounted Laser hardpoints, if pinpoint LLAS or PPCs are your thing.


It just seems that the K gave up way too much for the extra AMS, and can't fulfill the other roles as well as the other Atlas variants.

The K can brawl, sure. So can a lot of other mechs. But if you want a brawling Atlas, there are better variant options.
So why spend the money? Just to grind the Atlas to Elite? Just buy a D for that, and maybe even keep it.


Just my two cents.
I'm sure a well played K could do well enough, even in a brawl, but it's not a mech you would want to keep playing with after your leveled it. *shrug*


I wish more Mechs had variants like the Hunchback.
4 out of 5 variants can all be built for different things and be very effective at what they do.
I keep them, all mastered, in my mechbays and love playing them all for different reasons.

Unfortunately, too many other mechs suffer from 1 or 2 "optimal" variants, with the rest being garbage you have to grind out.
The light mechs especially suffer from this problem, particularly with ECM such a big factor.

[Cest7]

You're missing a launcher...

[Hex Pallett]

Ravennus, on 15 February 2013 - 12:37 AM, said:

The K can brawl, sure. So can a lot of other mechs. But if you want a brawling Atlas, there are better variant options.
So why spend the money? Just to grind the Atlas to Elite? Just buy a D for that, and maybe even keep it.

Okay...don't laugh. I do a lot of compulsive things, one of which is avoiding more than three weapon groups. With 7D's Arm/LT/RT/CT hardpoint design, chance is I would end up with 4 groups. Surely I could group four MLas together, but then chance is the two CT lasers wouldn't catch up with Lights, or angle enough vertically, right? Also, Doesn't RS do everything better than 7D?

So now I have DDC as lance leader, K as mid-range tank buster and RS as trollcannon. Believe me, if 7S comes out, chance is my poor 7K would be dumped.

[Desist]

Helmstif, on 14 February 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

Alpha damage Alpha damage blah blah blah. How much brawl have you been doing lately? Not much, I assume?

Let's do some comparison. I shall first present you my most proud creation DDC: STD350, 15DHS, 1xAC20(3ton), 2xMPL, 3xArtemisSRM4(2ton), and of course ECM. A "mere" 62-Alpha build.

Average damage per match (roughly): 600. Good-day damage after match: 1000+.

You see, the point of brawling is not how much damage you can Alpha, but how much damage you can consistently put out before your armor runs out, AND how much damage your TEAMMATE could deal during that period.

Now let's go back to my 7-K. A even more humbled 48-Alpha build. However, the LLas allow me to start putting out damage a good few hundred meters away, not mentioning the unholy base damage of the AC20 dealing still significant punches well beyond the effective range.

All. On. One. Spot. If your target is big enough. Like, say, another Atlas.

You're not really brawling if you're sniping people off at a distance with LLas, which you will have to do to actually be effective. I do the same thing with my D-DC, except I traded out the AC/20 for gauss, cause in my experience your AC/20 lasts about the same amount of time in a brawl, maybe slightly longer, like a second, but you can use the gauss at much larger ranges.

The reason I mention alpha is because Atlas vs Atlas, if you're in a K, it'll take you 3 or 4 shots to the torso to take it out. While they can take out your torso in 2 or 3. The majority of their damage comes from fire and forget weapons so they can torso twist and make your damage spread out, while you have to hold lasers onto them and hope that AC/20 lasts.

I don't really brawl much. I don't believe in it really. I kind of brawled with my Atlas RS 4 LPLs 2 asrm6, which was actually pretty decent. For a short period I brawled with an Awesome 9M. Thought it'd be funny to be a zombie Awesome running around at 80+kph. It was actually pretty funny. But I found out I didn't enjoy tanking damage for my team and dieing every game. Interesting note. This Awesome did more damage than your K build. I currently run a Cat A1 ASRM6 monster, but I don't really brawl with that so much as hit and run. I run in, alpha a couple of times, and run out.

The reason I don't brawl much is running into too many premades and getting my Atlas arms/torsos instantly shot off by focus fire. Things like multiple K2 Gauss cats, or combinations of AC/20 cats and other AC/20 wielding mechs, or a couple of those poptart Cataphract 3Ds with 2 ERPPCs and a Gauss, a couple 3 UAC/5 Illyas, or even just one of those 6PPC stalker monsters. In these cases you're pretty much just a meat shield for their fire. For about 10 seconds they will be shooting at you and not your team. You won't be doing much damage because your weapons will be shot off one after the other. The only thing you can hope for is that your team is returning as much focused damage as theirs, which they probably aren't.

For those sortof encounters, I prefer either long-ranged weapons to try and compete with them or a combination of stealth, speed, and power.

If what you're going for is someone that runs in and soaks up damage, then the weapons you equip won't matter much anyways, as long as you have something deemed a threat.

Edited by Desist, 15 February 2013 - 02:33 AM.

[Hex Pallett]

Desist, on 15 February 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

You're not really brawling if you're sniping people off at a distance with LLas, which you will have to do to actually be effective. I do the same thing with my D-DC, except I traded out the AC/20 for gauss, cause in my experience your AC/20 lasts about the same amount of time in a brawl, maybe slightly longer, like a second, but you can use the gauss at much larger ranges.

The reason I mention alpha is because Atlas vs Atlas, if you're in a K, it'll take you 3 or 4 shots to the torso to take it out. While they can take out your torso in 2 or 3. The majority of their damage comes from fire and forget weapons so they can torso twist and make your damage spread out, while you have to hold lasers onto them and hope that AC/20 lasts.

I never said my K was a brawler. I said it's a K that doesn't suck If I start shooting a good few hundred meters beyond his SRM range, chance is it would balance out the sheer damage output; if he turns the torso to tank the heat, then by the time he push up to my face, he wouldn't be far from my teammates either.

Also, I STRONGLY recommend you to switch Gauss to AC20. AC20 has an effective range of 270 but also an astonishing max range of 810, which means, assuming the damage drop-off rate is constant over range, an AC20 at 400m should still be doing around 15 damage. If you still want more ranged punch then you'll probably end up better with PPC, or one more Gauss, or simply LRM.

Plus AC20 hits hard (cockpit shake) and doesn't go boom when breathed at

Atlas' heavy armor should be considered in itself a weapon, a defensive resource for your team. An Atlas should be where teammates run toward when under heavy fire, which is why I distaste range-focused Atlas. If LRM is your thing, there're quite a few Stalkers over the other end of the hanger.

[Desist]

Helmstif, on 15 February 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

I never said my K was a brawler. I said it's a K that doesn't suck If I start shooting a good few hundred meters beyond his SRM range, chance is it would balance out the sheer damage output; if he turns the torso to tank the heat, then by the time he push up to my face, he wouldn't be far from my teammates either.

Also, I STRONGLY recommend you to switch Gauss to AC20. AC20 has an effective range of 270 but also an astonishing max range of 810, which means, assuming the damage drop-off rate is constant over range, an AC20 at 400m should still be doing around 15 damage. If you still want more ranged punch then you'll probably end up better with PPC, or one more Gauss, or simply LRM.

Plus AC20 hits hard (cockpit shake) and doesn't go boom when breathed at

Atlas' heavy armor should be considered in itself a weapon, a defensive resource for your team. An Atlas should be where teammates run toward when under heavy fire, which is why I distaste range-focused Atlas. If LRM is your thing, there're quite a few Stalkers over the other end of the hanger.

I started out using the AC/20. I was a bit disappointed with it honestly. Before I switched to Gauss, I won a few games and did pretty good damage never having anything in range to even use the AC/20. Whenever I did get into brawl range, it'd get shot off fairly quick and I'd be lucky to get off more than a shot or two. I can carry more ammo with the Gauss than the AC/20. I can use it at a safer distance, and if I somehow manage to use all of my shots with it, I've won the game. In brawling range its good for the same amount of shots as the AC/20. Less damage sure, but I'll have gotten off more shots before then.

I am actually thinking of putting an ERPPC and LRMs on my D-DC. The only thing that would bother me about doing it is having almost nothing to kill ECM Ravens with.

The amount of damage you can do with 30 ALRMs is astounding. 3 or 4 salvos and you've neutered an Atlas. I once was up against a premade of 4 gauss K2s. They had an ECM Atlas with them. They all focused me and I took out the Atlas and I think I got off one additional volley of LRMs right before they cored me. My pug group still lost of course, but I was pretty impressed with the Atlas kill.

Edited by Desist, 15 February 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Ursh]

If you put ERPPCs and LRMs on your DDC you've already conceded the game to any mediocre to moderately competent pug group. Against a decent four man, they'll properly ignore you and use cover while focus firing all of your teammates.

DDCs with LRMs are a waste of an assault. You'll have a lot of matches where you rack up damage and lose the match because you're the last guy left and the four guys who focus fired your medium and heavy teammates come after you and blow you away.

[Selfish]

The K is a sad bird. It can zombie like the D, but lacks the extra missile/ballistic hardpoints and is forced to fit two close range energy. In lore it's supposed to be a long range boat, but a triple weapon type 'jack of all trades' setup isn't very effective at range. It's not bad, but it's undeniably the worst Atlas variant and my opinion is that it's the worst dual AMS mech. It's a small pool, but the 5S can actually pull off a decent range game with either missiles or energy.

[Hex Pallett]

Selfish, on 15 February 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

The K is a sad bird. It can zombie like the D, but lacks the extra missile/ballistic hardpoints and is forced to fit two close range energy. In lore it's supposed to be a long range boat, but a triple weapon type 'jack of all trades' setup isn't very effective at range. It's not bad, but it's undeniably the worst Atlas variant and my opinion is that it's the worst dual AMS mech. It's a small pool, but the 5S can actually pull off a decent range game with either missiles or energy.

Yeah yeah I've heard that thousands of times, otherwise I wouldn't title it "a build that doesn't suck". The single missile hardpoint is so pathetically useless I had to abandon it. With this build I could at least take down an enemy Assault with me. I KNOW I'M BEATING A DEAD HORSE OKAY??

[Selfish]

Helmstif, on 15 February 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Yeah yeah I've heard that thousands of times, otherwise I wouldn't title it "a build that doesn't suck". The single missile hardpoint is so pathetically useless I had to abandon it. With this build I could at least take down an enemy Assault with me. I KNOW I'M BEATING A DEAD HORSE OKAY??

Did I mention its exorbitant cost over the other Atlai? Or that it had hardpoints removed in CB? That it can only fit 3 maximum modules, but the DC can fit 4? It's also the only Atlas to sport a fanny pack, and I've heard that pigeons prefer its left eye as their roost!

[Orgasmo]

I reworked the K from the stock build a little bit. It is now a dedicated sniping platform, with a single LRM 20 in case your lights call for indirect fire support.

XL 300
1X Gauss (3 ton ammo)
1X LRM 20 (3 ton ammo)
2X ER PPC
BAP (+ Adv sensor range module)
DHS and Artemis

The BAP combined with the adv sensor range module provides you with 50% plus detection range. It allows you to predict where the enemy mechs will go and let you set up sniping positions in advance. Stand about 200m behind the front line and lay down the hurt. You will not top the damage chart anytime soon, but as a sniper you don't have to.