473 replies to this topic

[armyof1]

StalaggtIKE, on 14 February 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

You do realize that a ECM pilot does not have to be standing in the open to work, right? It goes both ways. Don't worry LRM, will continue to be ineffective.

I was talking about whenever one team doesn't have ECM, and the other has one or several lrmboats on open maps like caustic valley, it becomes so boring as you end up just hiding for most of the match. I'm looking forward to EU servers, then I'm going to dedicate a lot of time sniping lrmboats.

Edited by armyof1, 14 February 2013 - 12:14 PM.

[Titan Osis]

What the actual @#$%?

Are you people serious? first you ***** about LRMs being too powerful, they nerf them quite well and currently I think they do plenty of damage etc and you can avoid them as long as you don't play like a handicapped person.

Second, ECM is added, everyone is so freaking bum hurt about it they cry and cry to nerf ECM into the ground when it is perfectly fine in its current state. So they nerf it anyway give you plenty of ways to counter it (TAG, PPC buff coming, and the module buff they are adding). 2/3 of people on the forum still want it nerfed into the ground.

NOW, with the incoming buffs to ECM disruption you're back on "LRMs are going to be so OP! NERF DEMZ!!!!!"

Just shut up, get better at the game with the equipment you have and learn to cooperate with your team. LRM's are FINE, ECM is FINE, the incoming buffs will be GREAT, LRMs will only dominate the noobs. Good players will be just fine.

[Garth Erlam]

Quote

If you see someone in a D-DC who isn't in AC20, 2x LL (or LPL) and 3xSRM6 then you see someone in a build that's at a disadvantage against all D-DCs that do use that build.

Interestingly, the best DDC pilot in the game doesn't use that.

Also again, if the LRM boats have cover, so can you. If their spotter can see you, you can see them. LRM's get an advantage when people huddle up and refuse to consider flanking them. Consider the disadvantages of LRM's vs. direct fire weapons:

• Min range 180 metres.
  
• Damage is spread out.
  
• Damage can be negated entirely by a target moving into cover.
  
• Without a spotter, you need to see the target.
  
• ECM prevents a lock.
  
• AMS cuts down the damage of each volley.

I get comically killed by LRMs, yes. But I also comically kill LRM boats. It's about the situation and the tactics used. If you leave an LRM boat alone, it will bring forth Armageddon. If you close to 175 metres, it brings forth nothing, and attempts to lumber away in terror.

[LaserAngel]

Garth Erlam, on 14 February 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

The LRM boats will likewise have little cover, and tend to die when, err, shot. I find an effective LRM counter is shooting them with weapons.

I am in the zone with my Founder's Catapult C1 now. Hitting two targets at once with different weapon systems, firing LRMs from around corners with one launcher, TAG'ing people in flight to make sure I get every missile accuracy benefit, and playing Super Mario Bros. on River or Frozen City to get good sight lines with cover.

My body is ready.

Garth Erlam, on 14 February 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

• AMS cuts down the damage of each volley.

No one carries AMS. It's become a joke in my group that I'm the ONLY person that carries AMS and I'm in a Catapult C1 with dual 15s or a D-DC with ECM and a single 20.

Edited by LaserAngel, 14 February 2013 - 12:21 PM.

[Konrad]

Hey here's an idea. Relax and enjoy what the game is now. Balancing will continue until beta is complete.

[Kylere]

I do not always whine, but when I do I wait until AFTER it happens.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

LRMs are LRMs....

Now give me my damn Trenchbucket!

And as Garth just stated, which you will quickly find [if you've ever run a dedicated LRM boat]
is that direct fire will chew you to pieces.

, "and attempts to lumber away in terror"

LOL!

Edited by M4NTiC0R3X, 14 February 2013 - 12:30 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Garth Erlam, on 14 February 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Interestingly, the best DDC pilot in the game doesn't use that.

Also again, if the LRM boats have cover, so can you. If their spotter can see you, you can see them. LRM's get an advantage when people huddle up and refuse to consider flanking them. Consider the disadvantages of LRM's vs. direct fire weapons:

• Min range 180 metres.
  
• Damage is spread out.
  
• Damage can be negated entirely by a target moving into cover.
  
• Without a spotter, you need to see the target.
  
• ECM prevents a lock.
  
• AMS cuts down the damage of each volley.

I get comically killed by LRMs, yes. But I also comically kill LRM boats. It's about the situation and the tactics used. If you leave an LRM boat alone, it will bring forth Armageddon. If you close to 175 metres, it brings forth nothing, and attempts to lumber away in terror.

I absolutely get the means of balance to that. However, the reason it works this way is because LRMs are designed to be 'boated'. More to the point their power expands exponentially with an organized team and ECM along with a TAG spotter.

The design promotes boating over diversity and specializing each mech in a team for specific roles. I can appreciate where for an organized team of players this can be great - specifically because what it does is give them a huge advantage over pugs who have no control over who they drop with. What it does instead is just make each game a roll of the dice and mean that you need to boat your mech and try to focus on exploiting the situations that your boated design benefit you the most in. This is most relevant in LRMs and ECM.

Is the best D-DC Atlas player in the game a pug or on a team? If he pugs, mind sharing what his loadout is?

[Parnage Winters]

This op can't be real. I do not believe someone is just that stupid.

[NocturnalBeast]

Holy crap is this forum bipolar, "Waah waah, ECM is OP, Nerf it, Nerf it, Nerf it now, or [insert empty threat and or ultimatum]!!!" Now we have: "Oh me, oh my, LRMs are going to kill us all now that there will be new ways to counter them. Nerf LRMs, Nerf LRMs, Nerf them now, or [insert empty threat and or ultimatum]!!!" Please people, learn how to adapt, these changes keep us on our toes and make us come up with new tactics and strategies.

[Arcadian Xero]

MischiefSC, on 14 February 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

Is the best D-DC Atlas player in the game a pug or on a team? If he pugs, mind sharing what his loadout is?

I'm sorry I do not share my load outs with anyone.

[LaserAngel]

MischiefSC, on 14 February 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

I absolutely get the means of balance to that. However, the reason it works this way is because LRMs are designed to be 'boated'. More to the point their power expands exponentially with an organized team and ECM along with a TAG spotter.

The design promotes boating over diversity and specializing each mech in a team for specific roles. I can appreciate where for an organized team of players this can be great - specifically because what it does is give them a huge advantage over pugs who have no control over who they drop with. What it does instead is just make each game a roll of the dice and mean that you need to boat your mech and try to focus on exploiting the situations that your boated design benefit you the most in. This is most relevant in LRMs and ECM.

Is the best D-DC Atlas player in the game a pug or on a team? If he pugs, mind sharing what his loadout is?

TT is disturingly LRM heavy as well. If you're not a light, you have a LRM 10 somewhere.

I was running my D-DC near stock except for fancy upgrades. A straight bralwer D-DC would beat me out but everyone else? They'd charge and get hit by the 2 ML, AC/20, and SRM 6. Then they'd panic and fallback into my Artemis LRM 20 range. We had two Atlas in our drop like this and then someone else was in an LRM Stalker 5M TAG'ing for us.

[Abivard]

[Norris J Packard]

Garth Erlam, on 14 February 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Interestingly, the best DDC pilot in the game doesn't use that.

Also again, if the LRM boats have cover, so can you. If their spotter can see you, you can see them. LRM's get an advantage when people huddle up and refuse to consider flanking them. Consider the disadvantages of LRM's vs. direct fire weapons:

• Min range 180 metres.
  
• Damage is spread out.
  
• Damage can be negated entirely by a target moving into cover.
  
• Without a spotter, you need to see the target.
  
• ECM prevents a lock.
  
• AMS cuts down the damage of each volley.

I get comically killed by LRMs, yes. But I also comically kill LRM boats. It's about the situation and the tactics used. If you leave an LRM boat alone, it will bring forth Armageddon. If you close to 175 metres, it brings forth nothing, and attempts to lumber away in terror.

Ya, I use two ML's.

[Monsoon]

Particle Man, on 14 February 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

your tears are delicious!

buy an AMS and stay behind things.

This^^

Seriously, LRM's are meant to be deadly, but they have a number of inherent weaknesses. Grab the Atlas-K and buy two AMS! Then pop in some ERPPC for your return fire on those LRM boats while using a hill to absorb all those missiles.

[INAPPROPRIATE NAME 0001]

Norris J Packard, on 14 February 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Ya, I use two ML's.

Best atlas DDC pilot is still wholly inferior to the scrubbiest of Stalker pilots.

Enjoy losing because that's all you do scrub.

[Mystere]

Why do you think I've been practicing with ERPPCs, TAG, and LRMs all this time?

[LaserAngel]

Monsoon, on 14 February 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

This^^

Seriously, LRM's are meant to be deadly, but they have a number of inherent weaknesses. Grab the Atlas-K and buy two AMS! Then pop in some ERPPC for your return fire on those LRM boats while using a hill to absorb all those missiles.

All kinds of wrong with that. The Atlas K is the worst Atlas to begin with even with the supposed dual AMS crutch. Along with that it's too slow within effect LRM range to get into cover. Unless you like taking pop shots at 1,000 m. On top of that the Atlas has some of the lowest arm mounted energy points in the game.

[MischiefSC]

LaserAngel, on 14 February 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

TT is disturingly LRM heavy as well. If you're not a light, you have a LRM 10 somewhere.

I was running my D-DC near stock except for fancy upgrades. A straight bralwer D-DC would beat me out but everyone else? They'd charge and get hit by the 2 ML, AC/20, and SRM 6. Then they'd panic and fallback into my Artemis LRM 20 range. We had two Atlas in our drop like this and then someone else was in an LRM Stalker 5M TAG'ing for us.

I should clarify that I'm not complaining about LRMs. ECM or otherwise in and of themselves they're not OPed, they're just redefined as a fire support weapon sort of like ARROW IV. Designed to work best in a coordinated team with a spotter, vulnerable if caught alone. Essentially to work well LRMs need boated and someone or someones working support.

My main issue is with the counter, ECM. ECM is a force multiplier. It starts to exponentially increase the power of teamwork and organizing your teams mech makeup. It also has a far larger impact when used against groups without VOIP or control over their own makeup. Someone pugging in an A1 for example can't load their own TAG, so they have to go SRMs or throw the craps in hopes that the enemy either doesn't have ECM or that they drop with another PUG who inexplicably gave up an additional weapon hardpoint to mount a tool for aiding any team mates who may or may not need a tag equipped ally.

Additional balancing of ECM seems like, at least from what's been announced, that it's going to be based more and more on conditional specialized counters. This just expands the gap between the advantages joining a team has and pugging and makes playing as a pug more and more a gamble. Who did you drop with? Anyone else have ECM? Who's got PPCs? Anyone an LRM boat? Anyone have TAG? Yes, no, maybe?

Does that make sense? R/P/S balancing weighs exponentially towards benefiting premade teams and against pugs trying to coordinate teamwork on the fly. It drives the pugging experience more towards lone wolf, make a build you can run on your own and it doesn't matter who you drop with.

[Tesunie]

MischiefSC, on 14 February 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

I absolutely get the means of balance to that. However, the reason it works this way is because LRMs are designed to be 'boated'. More to the point their power expands exponentially with an organized team and ECM along with a TAG spotter. The design promotes boating over diversity and specializing each mech in a team for specific roles. I can appreciate where for an organized team of players this can be great - specifically because what it does is give them a huge advantage over pugs who have no control over who they drop with. What it does instead is just make each game a roll of the dice and mean that you need to boat your mech and try to focus on exploiting the situations that your boated design benefit you the most in. This is most relevant in LRMs and ECM. Is the best D-DC Atlas player in the game a pug or on a team? If he pugs, mind sharing what his loadout is?

LRMs are not designed to just be boated. They are great fire support. My Stalker 3F is one of my biggest killers. wanna know my load out? Simple. I use LRMs to trick people like you into thinking I'm a pure LRM boat, as I'm firing a total of 20 LRMs at you. A good threat. You're foolish enough to charge me to kill my LRMs, and get greeted very warmly by my 6 need lasers, which melt even Atlases.

I've also (before ECM) had a Hunchback 4J/4SP outfitted with two LRM5s and four med lasers. I found myself using the LRMs as I closed in, and then killed with my lasers when I got close.

Or my current Dragon, with an LRM10 as I close in (or keep distance if I need to), and have an AC and 2 med lasers for close range combat.

My point is that you do not have to boat a weapon to be great at the game. I'm having a lot of fun, do well, and I'm basically running in a basic Centurian build (in a Dragon). Having diverse weapons is not bad and can be a lot of fun. It can also help with heat when certain weapons work at only certain ranges.

It's all up to style and preference. Do you like the Barbarian or the Necromancer in Diablo 2? Does it matter? It's all in how you play the game.