473 replies to this topic

[Death Mallet]

Garth Erlam, on 14 February 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Interestingly, the best DDC pilot in the game doesn't use that. Also again, if the LRM boats have cover, so can you. If their spotter can see you, you can see them. LRM's get an advantage when people huddle up and refuse to consider flanking them. Consider the disadvantages of LRM's vs. direct fire weapons:

• Min range 180 metres.
• Damage is spread out.
• Damage can be negated entirely by a target moving into cover.
• Without a spotter, you need to see the target.
• ECM prevents a lock.
• AMS cuts down the damage of each volley.

I get comically killed by LRMs, yes. But I also comically kill LRM boats. It's about the situation and the tactics used. If you leave an LRM boat alone, it will bring forth Armageddon. If you close to 175 metres, it brings forth nothing, and attempts to lumber away in terror.

Let's consider your points in the context of LRM 20 vs. AC 10. In theory, the AC10 weighs 2 tons more, so it ought to be the more effective weapon, right? But let's not even try for that fantasy land, let's just consider them head's up:

• Optimum range is less than half the LRM20
  
• Damage is just over 1/4 that of the LRM20, Damage per Second is less than half the LRM20
  
• Damage can be negated entirely by target moving into cover
  
• You always need to see the target, whether you've got a spotter or not
  
• You never get a target lock, regardless of whether the target has ECM or not
  
• Your damage is so much lower than an LRM20, it doesn't matter that AMS won't help at all

LRMs are an easy-mode weapon that creates boring gameplay. After the ECM/PPC change goes into effect, LRMs will be back with a vengence. People think that the LRMs you see on the battlefield will just get a little more effective, and that's not so bad.

What they don't realize is that once people see that LRMs - the ultimate in easy mode weapons - are now back on top, half of every enemy team will just be LRM boats darkening the sky with missile swarms. Closing to engage them won't do any good, (even if you can stay in cover the whole way) because once you engage one, his 3 LRM Boat buddies will still be outside minimum, and they will obliterate you.

[Vechs]

If a mech is being constantly hit with PPCs, am I the only one thinking that mech will have bigger problems to deal with than the possible chance that maybe there might be some LRMs being shot from somewhere at someone?

You know, maybe a more immediate pressing problem, just a wild guess here on this, but...

THE FACT THE THIS HYPOTHETICAL MECH IS BEING CONSTANTLY HIT BY PPCs?

>__>

[KuruptU4Fun]

Rhent, on 14 February 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

All you'll see is LRM Boats + 1 ERPPC + Tag +BAP to deal with existing ECM.

So do we call that a ECM NegAtlas?

[Zero Neutral]

Death Mallet, on 14 February 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

The Problem:

LRMs never got "fixed". The problem with LRMs was only covered up by the dominance of ECM on the battlefield. Well, ECM is about to take a big hit. . . and once again the LRM boats will reap a deadly toll on everything else.

How We Got Here:

On the Feb 8 patch the heat fixes to the PPC allowed it to make a triumphant return to the battlefield. Its in widespread use again now.

On Feb 19, PPCs will now shut down ECM. Which means, AS7-D-DCs will largely become obsolete. They'll be hit with enough PPC fire that their ECM will be negated most of the time.

This leaves only the light mechs to carry the effective ECM systems.

What's Going to Happen on Feb 19:

- LRM boats are going to come back in a big way. If you're driving a heavy or assault mech, you will no longer have effective ECM cover once the PPCs start flying and, once again, you will start getting anihilated by massed LRM volleys.

- Premades will dominate PUG players more than they do now. Why? Because only the light mechs will have effective ECM due to it being harder to hit them with PPCs. On smart premade teams, the light mech drivers will be assigned to hang back and cover the heavies and assaults with their ECM. On pug teams the light mech players will charge out as they do today, leaving the heavies and assaults to get slaughtered by LRMs.

- AS7-D-DCs will gradually disappear from the battlefield. The game will come to be dominated by light mechs toting PPCs and LRM boats - probably Stalkers. Other mech types need not apply.

What can be done to fix the coming LRM apocalypse?

- Nerf LRM damage
- Increase non-ECM LRM lockon time
- Reduce LRM accuracy
- Reduce ammo/ton for LRMs
- Fix the double heat sink issue so its not biased in favor of light mechs.
http://mwomercs.com/...simplification/

. . . or all of the above.

So what you are trying to say is that you think PPC will be a better counter to ECM than TAG??? Not sure if serious.

So, for LRM users, TAG was just a waste of time, but now PPC will suddenly turn the game in to LRM Online? Not sure if serious.

TAG is far superior for LRM use than PPC are. The combination of the two might be even better, but still require LOS to work. Not sure if serious.

It's as if you don't even realize that TAG:

Has a longer range

Doesn't generate heat

Takes 1 ton and 1 slot

Can fire indefinitely

Does not require aiming a ballistic round

You do know that TAG is probably the best current counter for ECM? I fail to see how a secondary effect on PPC would change that.

Edited by Zero Neutral, 14 February 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Zero Neutral, on 14 February 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

So what you are trying to say is that you think PPC will be a better counter to ECM than TAG??? Not sure if serious.

So, for LRM users, TAG was just a waste of time, but now PPC will suddenly turn the game in to LRM Online? Not sure if serious.

TAG is far superior for LRM use than PPC are. The combination of the two might be even better, but still require LOS to work. Not sure if serious.

Actually, I anticipate some ERPPC+SSRM combinations going on, which will be interesting to see.

[MischiefSC]

ECM is about so much more than LRMs though. Target identification, paperdoll, the ability to share targets and locations quickly and effectively if you're not on voice coms.

Let ECM block or slow LRM locks if that's the big fear. It's the stealth field that I greatly dislike.

[Nightcrept]

Zero Neutral, on 14 February 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

So what you are trying to say is that you think PPC will be a better counter to ECM than TAG??? Not sure if serious.

So, for LRM users, TAG was just a waste of time, but now PPC will suddenly turn the game in to LRM Online? Not sure if serious.

TAG is far superior for LRM use than PPC are. The combination of the two might be even better, but still require LOS to work. Not sure if serious.

It's as if you don't even realize that TAG:

Has a longer range

Doesn't generate heat

Takes 1 ton and 1 slot

Can fire indefinitely

If your running with other players then ppc would be a better option then tag. PPC will drop the ecm field and let the ecm mech be targeted by lrms and streaks. PPC also deals damage and does not require constant line of sight.

[Zero Neutral]

Death Mallet, on 14 February 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

We had hills and rocks before. LRMs were a problem before.

Glad you posted this because I'll be sure and bring this thread back up a couple days after the next patch.

Dude, TAG has been around for quite some time and it is a much more massive counter to ECM than PPC, just look at what TAG does compared to what PPC does. It doesn't take a brain surgeon...

Edited by Zero Neutral, 14 February 2013 - 02:20 PM.

[xX_Nero_Xx]

t-bolts tbolts tbolts roflmao wait for them and see how many ppl forget about lrms .
the head turning mech rocking sounds of a semi slamming into a pt cruiser .
realize that wasnt a 8 ac/20 but a single tbolt lol

[Asmudius Heng]

I do not know if this will be the case - but i actually hope so.

If the game becomes frustrating enough that people see the broken aspects of LRMs as well then we will have scremaing from ECM and LRM haters.

This game balancing measure of adding hard counters, then hard counters to the hard counters does eventually even things out but it does not make a fun game. It gets frustrating if you do not have the hard counter and leaves you with few options.

This i not just a problem for boats or one trick ponies either. Everyone will have those games that make you want to punch your monitror.

A better solution is to make the game balances from the base emchanics of certain wepaons then you can add more soft counters that will allow ebbs and flows of effectiveness and no one will feel too screwed and will always have at least half a fighting chance instead of none.

So bring on the QQ from ALL sides until PGI look at whats is fun and balanced.

[Nightcrept]

Zero Neutral, on 14 February 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Dude, TAG has been around for quite some time and it is a much more massive counter to ECM than PPC, just look at what TAG does compared to what PPC does. It doesn't take a brain surgeon...

How do you figure. Tag is harder to use, causes no damage and doesn't effect the ecm field effect. PPC will. Tag is useless against skilled players. PPC's will be more effective because all you need to do is snipe your targets.

[Zero Neutral]

Nightcrept, on 14 February 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

If your running with other players then ppc would be a better option then tag. PPC will drop the ecm field and let the ecm mech be targeted by lrms and streaks. PPC also deals damage and does not require constant line of sight.

....................................nevermind I can see that it is hopeless here. TAG is far superior to the PPC effect in all aspects for countering ECM. Carry on.

Nightcrept, on 14 February 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

How do you figure. Tag is harder to use, causes no damage and doesn't effect the ecm field effect. PPC will. Tag is useless against skilled players. PPC's will be more effective because all you need to do is snipe your targets.

Listen to yourself hahaha. All you need to do is snipe targets, eh? I guess using a TAG laser is not like sniping at all... Have you even tried TAG? ROFL

I dunno what to say, carry on bud.

A constant beam of light that hits the target instantaneously is harder to use than a ballistic energy round that must be led on the target and aimed properly ROFL... I guess people hate TAG so much that they just never used it and gotten used to its' effectiveness. TAG is, and will remain, superior to PPC for LRM boating.

HOWEVER, PPC can finally be used as a short range counter to ECM for whatever reason a pilot might need to do that. It will be the only effect that can bring down ECM within the bubble. <<< that is the only point that is valid regarding PPC over TAG. For LRM use TAG remains superior... not being able to identify that fact is... I don't even.

When you hit some one with your, "ZOMG GODLY NEW PPC COUNTER TO ECM!" guess what, now they are already taking cover and your LRM are worthless. When you hit some one with your TAG laser, they are mostly unawares except for an icon and less likely to take cover. I'm going to just stop because what is obvious to me seems to be over your head.

Edited by Zero Neutral, 14 February 2013 - 02:31 PM.

[River Walker]

I cant what for the 19.
ECM is finely getting work on and the slow ECM bubble combat is going to get pop at last.

[TVMA Doc]

SI The Joker, on 14 February 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

Could we please let them implement this first?

What fun is it to wait and see when we can panic NOW?

[Elkarlo]

Dear OP

Momentarly i need to go out of cover every 3.5 Secs to Tag an enemy D-DC to hit him constantly with LRM,
which is the same Cycle as my LRM launchers on my C1.
And is the same Cycle as PPC have (Fast fire Perk on both).
Even after the PPC ECM Disruptioon the Atlas D-DC will stay as main prime against LRM-Boats.
Only different will be: that the Sneaking in Effect or sneaking over Water Effect won't be possible.
And that against TWO Ecm Mechs we still need Tag for LRM shooting.

So i don't understand the whole Issue here.

Atm are mostly only Hardcore LRM Players out there, because you need to be good to best ECM or Hills
So this will stay the same.

Btw i have a Suggestion to you and your Friends:
When 6 AMS are mounted in the Team and they stay in vicinity to each other,
only three Mechs are able to do LRM Damage
CPLT-C4 (40 tubes), STK3H (50 tubes ) and AWS-8R(60 tubes)
Every AMS shots down 5-7 LRM's only this three Mechs are able to start waves bigger then 30 Missles.
When all People mount AMS, and stay together i would have a lot harder time killing you.
But today i see AS7-K with NO AMS equipt, which is simply stupid.
And the first step to have enough AMS in the Team is mounting one on YOUR Mech.


(A Stalker-3F with 4x LRM20 shoots two waves with 30 Missles and two Waves with 10 Missles before you say anything about "Stalker can mount 4x LRM20" . With one AMS mounted only 60 of the 80 Missles will hit you, with two in the Flightpath only 40, so AMS protects against missles very good, even against Streak Ravens as they shoot 3,1 so only 1 Missle will hit you IF you have AMS equipted and shoo the Raven at a distance of 150M, which is quite easy.)

TLDR;
PPC negating ECM won't boost LRM, because of TAG does exactly the same for Missles.
Learn how to counter Missles, mount AMS.

Edited by Elkarlo, 14 February 2013 - 02:36 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

Death Mallet, on 14 February 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

The Problem:

LRMs never got "fixed". The problem with LRMs was only covered up by the dominance of ECM on the battlefield. Well, ECM is about to take a big hit. . . and once again the LRM boats will reap a deadly toll on everything else.

How We Got Here:

On the Feb 8 patch the heat fixes to the PPC allowed it to make a triumphant return to the battlefield. Its in widespread use again now.

On Feb 19, PPCs will now shut down ECM. Which means, AS7-D-DCs will largely become obsolete. They'll be hit with enough PPC fire that their ECM will be negated most of the time.

This leaves only the light mechs to carry the effective ECM systems.

What's Going to Happen on Feb 19:

- LRM boats are going to come back in a big way. If you're driving a heavy or assault mech, you will no longer have effective ECM cover once the PPCs start flying and, once again, you will start getting anihilated by massed LRM volleys.

- Premades will dominate PUG players more than they do now. Why? Because only the light mechs will have effective ECM due to it being harder to hit them with PPCs. On smart premade teams, the light mech drivers will be assigned to hang back and cover the heavies and assaults with their ECM. On pug teams the light mech players will charge out as they do today, leaving the heavies and assaults to get slaughtered by LRMs.

- AS7-D-DCs will gradually disappear from the battlefield. The game will come to be dominated by light mechs toting PPCs and LRM boats - probably Stalkers. Other mech types need not apply.

What can be done to fix the coming LRM apocalypse?

- Nerf LRM damage
- Increase non-ECM LRM lockon time
- Reduce LRM accuracy
- Reduce ammo/ton for LRMs
- Fix the double heat sink issue so its not biased in favor of light mechs.
http://mwomercs.com/...simplification/

. . . or all of the above.

Weve already tried nerfed missile damage LRMS bro...they sucked balls. Its really been tried lots and lots.

Here is my solution that would work perfectly well...and still satisfy Board Gamers and those more familiar with the Mechwarrior side of things.

To preface: The reason LRMS have to be semi-guided here to a large extent is that the torso Elavation/Declination is VERY much restricted here in MWO compared to previous incarnations. Missile Salvos were more skill based in other games.

In MW2, 3 and I believe 4, the ARC of LRMs was almost entirely decided by what angle you fired them at with your torso movement. With the conscious decision to leave those two key aspects out, PGI needed some way to make LRMS relevant, hence what we have now.


My solution would be to Quadruple(x4) LRM travel speed, buff damage individual missile speed to 2.0, and greatly increase missile spread, perhaps by as much as 50%. Artemis would decrease spread by 25% and give a 10% boost to missile tracking. TAG would decrease missile spread by 10% and give a 25% boost to missile tracking. Narc, being TL1 like TAG, would work off the same bonuses as TAG, the only difference being that NARC beacons would be active for 30 seconds. Only the highest bonus would apply if all systems were used together.(25/25) Along with these systems would come modules that would increase NARC duration by 20/40%(1500 and 3000GXP) and one to allow your own NARCs and TAGS to function within an ECM field.(15000GXP). There would also be a LRM module to allow Artemis equipped missiles to partially account for terrain, ala Mechwarrior 3 Artemis. It would give them limited ability to follow general Terrain Elevation on there way to the target...Its hard to describe without being able to show it, but those familiar know what im talking about(also 10k GXP)

AMS would receive an increased firing rate = to about 50% of what is is now and its range would be extended to 360 meters, allowing for more possible interceptions depending on positioning.. It would also only function if able to draw direct LOS to a missile packet. Laser AMS would be the direct upgrade, not having to devote tonnage to ammo, and not being explosive like normal AMS ammo on a critical. Laser AMS to generate a small amout of heat while firing.

And there you have it...missiles, TAG, NARC, AMS fixed without being crazy OP.

BTW Paul, if PGI wants to hire me on a temp contract basis, Id be open to talking about it.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 14 February 2013 - 02:39 PM.

[Nightcrept]

Zero Neutral, on 14 February 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

....................................nevermind I can see that it is hopeless here. TAG is far superior to the PPC effect in all aspects for countering ECM. Carry on.


Listen to yourself hahaha. All you need to do is snipe targets, eh? I guess using a TAG laser is not like sniping at all... Have you even tried TAG? ROFL

I dunno what to say, carry on bud.

A constant beam of light that hits the target instantaneously is harder to use than a ballistic energy round that must be led on the target and aimed properly ROFL... I guess people hate TAG so much that they just never used it and gotten used to its' effectiveness. TAG is, and will remain, superior to PPC for LRM boating.

HOWEVER, PPC can finally be used as a short range counter to ECM for whatever reason a pilot might need to do that. It will be the only effect that can bring down ECM within the bubble. <<< that is the only point that is valid regarding PPC over TAG. For LRM use TAG remains superior... not being able to identify that fact is... I don't even.

No one with one iota of brain power and experience in this game runs out in the open and lets you hold tag on them. So your points about tag are insane. Use tag and I'll play exactly like I always do. I always stay near cover and when the lrms are in the air I back up behind cover. Tag can't do diddly against that simple basic strategy. All ppc's have to do is to hit my d-dc one and not only can I be targeted but my ecm field is disrupted. Is this going to make lrms op. No. Not unless players play out in the open like they do apparently against your tag.I would say your just very simple minded. Tag is useless. PPc is more useful but will not have a large effect on the lrm's.

Edited by Nightcrept, 14 February 2013 - 02:36 PM.

[Tesunie]

In response to LRMs being easy mode: http://mwomercs.com/...00#entry1814400

I believe someone said that LRMs are easy mode weapons on this thread. My answer is explained in the link, but to sum it up, yes and no at the same time.

Edited by Tesunie, 14 February 2013 - 03:26 PM.

[FerrolupisXIII]

my favorite cover from lrm's is that friendly atlas/awesome/stalker standing nearby. INCOMING MISSILE? let me just hid behind this 100ton walker. lulz.

[Gallowglas]

Doobles, on 14 February 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

How is this going to be ANY different than before they released the ECM? Then LRM boats were effective but even then did not dominate the battlefield.

What game were you playing?