31 replies to this topic

[sC4r]

So yea its getting annoying that this topic (and some others like catapult) show up once several times in month showing off how useless, inneficient, ********** the double heatsinks are

some just rant about it some bring graphs or numbers and some just topic title BRING BACK THE 2.0 DHS

so first of all why arent dhs 2.0
they unce upon a time were 2.0 in closed beta when they were introduced however the way the game went at the time was ridiculous because this change -> this made pretty much every non energy builds worthless like spammers of ERLL, ERPPC/PPC and so on could fire quite effectively and if they boated smaller energy weapons like ML, MPL they could fire them constanly pretty much

and now my numbers regarding dhs 1.4
first of all i have no idea wheter engine are 2.0 or 1.4... but most assume its like that so i will trust you
what EVERYONE forgets when they pull out numbers is pilot skills -> heat efficiency and coolrun

the first one doesnt help in heat dissipitation however still helps with the highest heat threshold

the second one is the one that helps doing this so once you unlock it your dhs will go from 1.4 to 1.505... yea still not 2.0 and unhappy? ok you know what this skill has second tier -> once you unlock 3 basics so the maximum dhs efficiency will be 1.61 and lets not forget about engine heat sinks those will be 2.3

so lets lets say now i have hmmm catapult 20 total DHS with 2x errppc
so the heat dissipitation for it will be 10*2.3 + 10*1.61=23+16.1=39.1

39.1 for 20 heatsings??? i dont know if you are good at math but if i recall 20*2=40

tl dr;
if you read this you will get that the pilot skills will bring 1.4DHS to 2.0DHS

[Lord Ikka]

Actually, I've noticed a distinct lack of DHS need to be 2.0 for the last month. Compared to December, its been nice and quiet.

[CrashieJ]

sC4r, on 14 February 2013 - 11:05 PM, said:

snip

While I think that the way PGI is handling Weapons heat and DHS is out of whack, with fixing one thing messing up another.

the math does check out when all inefficiencies are added. Personally I think that DHS should be 1.7-1.8 all the way around to make non-engine DHSs a bit more worth it. Pulse Lasers are still crap due to PGI not loving them enough over ERLLs, and Tag is supposed to be .5 not 1 ton for us light pilots to use them effectively.

you math is sound by PGI standards. but I'm kinda tossed up between "Efficiencies are used to unlock items to the fullest extent" or "efficiencies are supposed to make things better"

-on another note-

SHUT UP YOUR LOGIC MAKES NO SENSE!!!!

[Pan]

Can the mods roll these threads together please?

[Josef Nader]

sC4r, on 14 February 2013 - 11:05 PM, said:

they unce upon a time were 2.0 in closed beta when they were introduced however the way the game went at the time was ridiculous because this change -> this made pretty much every non energy builds worthless like spammers of ERLL, ERPPC/PPC and so on could fire quite effectively and if they boated smaller energy weapons like ML, MPL they could fire them constanly pretty much

Maybe I have brain the dumb right now, but I can't recall DHS ever being 2.0 in CB. I'm fairly certain they were announced and introduced at a 1.4 value in CB, to a great deal of tantruming, Official statements said that 2.0 DHS were too strong during their internal testing, but none of us saw any of that.

tl;dr OP is blowing smoke.

[Craftyman]

double heat sinks are too stronk and need nerf to 1.1 efficiency.

[Rocket Puppy]

DHS is fine. At 1.4 is provides a great incentive to buy premium time without being capable for non-premium users.

You really need to add 1.5 mil to the price of every mech you buy. That is all.

I will also tell you that taking the time to hit a mech in a very specific spot is far more effective than splashing damage around hoping to do some hurt.

DHS is an advantage, but it is not out of reach of anyone.

[AndyHill]

The DHS were never 2.0 in beta. There were legends of internal tests with 3 second Jenners dominating the battlefield and being terrible and horrible etc. Then they released the DHS to general public, but there was a horrible bug in the patch, which gave us almost exactly the dreaded terrible 3 second Jenner (within a few % of its incredible heat performance). ...then they thought ok that's not so bad let's just leave it like that. At least that's how I recall it.

At most the true 2.0 sinks would give about 20% more heat efficiency to some builds. It's a fair amount, but hardly a revolution. Most builds would be affected less, some wouldn't be affected at all.

If the idea was to nerf assaults I can kind of see the point, but why did we get horror stories of 3 second Jenners coring Atlai back then, after which we actually got the 3 second Jenners and nerfed Atlai. At some point something didn't make sense, but perhaps I'm just missing some info.

[Adrienne Vorton]

they are fine...nuff said

[Yokaiko]

Op that these are all weighted average.

Not mention on a heavy mech with a big loadout, there just isn't room to stuff more than 6-8 DHS outside of the engine anyway.

[Apoc1138]

I don't want or don't care about DHS' being at 2.0

what is patently silly is that engine heatsinks ARE 2.0 and outside sinks are 1.4... the reason for not having 2.0 heatsinks is apparently a 6 medium laser cicada that can "core an atlas in 3 seconds" and general light mech being OP type reasons...

the current system benefits light mechs because they tend to be "engine sink" heavy and only have a couple of outside sinks
a better system would be to make ALL double heatsinks 1.7 or 1.8... which would benefit heavy mechs more than it benefits light mechs, which is what they said their intention was in the first place

I don't really care either way, this isn't a whine, it's an opinion... your reason for starting this thread is going to massively back fire because everyone with an opinion on DHS' is now going to comment in your thread asking people to stop talking about DHS'

[Anony Mouse]

First off, an opinion that differs from your own isn't whining, the inability to understand that is your shortcoming not everyone elses. Second whats worse than a thread "whining" about something? A thread with some douchebag whining about whiners. Voice your opinion its as valid as anyone elses, right up until you **** all over someone else and than nothing you say has any merit.

Edited by Anony Mouse, 15 February 2013 - 01:05 AM.

[Nightfangs]

sC4r, on 14 February 2013 - 11:05 PM, said:

So yea its getting annoying that this topic (and some others like catapult) show up once several times in month showing off how useless, inneficient, ********** the double heatsinks are

some just rant about it some bring graphs or numbers and some just topic title BRING BACK THE 2.0 DHS

so first of all why arent dhs 2.0
they unce upon a time were 2.0 in closed beta when they were introduced however the way the game went at the time was ridiculous because this change -> this made pretty much every non energy builds worthless like spammers of ERLL, ERPPC/PPC and so on could fire quite effectively and if they boated smaller energy weapons like ML, MPL they could fire them constanly pretty much

and now my numbers regarding dhs 1.4
first of all i have no idea wheter engine are 2.0 or 1.4... but most assume its like that so i will trust you
what EVERYONE forgets when they pull out numbers is pilot skills -> heat efficiency and coolrun

the first one doesnt help in heat dissipitation however still helps with the highest heat threshold

the second one is the one that helps doing this so once you unlock it your dhs will go from 1.4 to 1.505... yea still not 2.0 and unhappy? ok you know what this skill has second tier -> once you unlock 3 basics so the maximum dhs efficiency will be 1.61 and lets not forget about engine heat sinks those will be 2.3

so lets lets say now i have hmmm catapult 20 total DHS with 2x errppc
so the heat dissipitation for it will be 10*2.3 + 10*1.61=23+16.1=39.1

39.1 for 20 heatsings??? i dont know if you are good at math but if i recall 20*2=40

tl dr;
if you read this you will get that the pilot skills will bring 1.4DHS to 2.0DHS

Are you kidding me? We have been over this for SO many times.
There NEVER were any REAL 2.0-DHS in the beta.
The supposedly totally unbalanced gameplay and the tale of the jenner coring an atlas in 3 seconds all happened in internal, non-public testing.
We never ever had real 2.0 DHS, for the last time.

And the matter of fewer posts about DHS is the same as with the twindling posts about ECM.
Both are NOT okay. Just because people are sick of getting ignored and give up doesn't mean it is all fine.
Just make a poll... I think we had one about whether the implimentation of ECM improved the game or made it worst (about 25% pro, 20 undicided and 55% against ECM if I recall correctly) and see for yourself.
The results in both matters (ECM, DHS) will be the same, regardless of how many people still write posts about it or have given up already. People just don't like the current state.

Edited by Nightfangs, 15 February 2013 - 01:23 AM.

[sarkun]

I don't mind them being "not true doubles", but I think it is silly that engine heat sinks are different than normal heat sinks - it's illogical, unintuitive and just plain confusing to new players. They should all be 1.6 or some other value.

[yashmack]

Josef Nader, on 14 February 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

Maybe I have brain the dumb right now, but I can't recall DHS ever being 2.0 in CB. I'm fairly certain they were announced and introduced at a 1.4 value in CB, to a great deal of tantruming, Official statements said that 2.0 DHS were too strong during their internal testing, but none of us saw any of that.

tl;dr OP is blowing smoke.

youre correct
the reason that DHS are not 2.0 has been covered a few times by the Devs as well
They explained that having the DHS dissipate 2 heate very second was OP for light mechs
They had Jenners running around loaded to the gills with energy weapons doing non stop alphas and never shutting down, made them ridiculously powerful in test, so they brought it down to 1.4, then it was released to us for play

[Tincan Nightmare]

I've wondered if this is a 'balancing' attempt for when the Clans come calling. Since they have ER and pulse energy weapons only, with lower DHS capability they would probably have a higher heat curve to deal with. Be a ***** to be in a Black Hawk Prime with those 10 ER Med. lasers with the current heat system. This would be compensated by the clans having DHS that are 2 crits and equipment that takes up less internal space, making it easier to install more but eating up total pod toannage. Don't know if it would work like this but makes me wonder if that is the intentions.

[Rauchsauger]

Heat sinks are broken.

The balance between weapon heat and heat sinks is so screwed up that PGI cannot get it done in a good way.
Right now the heatsinks that are not in your engine are close to useless in any other way than critbuffer
(If you compare their effectiveness to the use of slots)

Edited by Rauchsauger, 15 February 2013 - 01:36 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Anony Mouse, on 15 February 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

First off, an opinion that differs from your own isn't whining, the inability to understand that is your shortcoming not everyone elses. Second whats worse than a thread "whining" about something? A thread with some douchebag whining about whiners. Voice your opinion its as valid as anyone elses, right up until you **** all over someone else and than nothing you say has any merit.

Be fair, maybe he isn't even talking to you or me. After all, we're not whining, we're just having an opinion. Some of us have some math to back it up. That doesn't sound like whining to me, and maybe not the OP either?

Mustrum "If only I could believe it" Ridcully

yashmack, on 15 February 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

youre correct
the reason that DHS are not 2.0 has been covered a few times by the Devs as well
They explained that having the DHS dissipate 2 heate very second was OP for light mechs
They had Jenners running around loaded to the gills with energy weapons doing non stop alphas and never shutting down, made them ridiculously powerful in test, so they brought it down to 1.4, then it was released to us for play

And then the give the light mech that are least likely to be able to add out-of-engine heat sinks True Double Heat Sinks in their engines.

It makes all perfect sense. In Bizarro Land.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 15 February 2013 - 01:38 AM.

[Zaptruder]

1. The Cool Run pilot perk only applies to heat generated through movement. Not weapons fire. So you're cutting running heat by upto 25% with Elite. Weapons fire is untouched.

2. The first 10 engine DHS are 2.0, extras cool at 1.4 rate. In practice, this translates to roughly to 1.7 for a 20DHS mech. Given the nature of innersphere DHS, it's difficult to get much more than 20DHS in there.

3. Lighter mechs are advantaged by the current system.

4. Larger mechs have received something of a heat buff through way of heat reductions on large energy weapons.

[Apoc1138]

Zaptruder, on 15 February 2013 - 01:39 AM, said:

1. The Cool Run pilot perk only applies to heat generated through movement. Not weapons fire. So you're cutting running heat by upto 25% with Elite. Weapons fire is untouched.

wrong, absolutely dead wrong... coolrun increases the rate of dissipation for ALL heat, not only heat from movement