50 replies to this topic

[Protoculture]

WolvesX, on 15 February 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

Where is to so called grind in this game?

You just play the game.

You don't have to make quest over and over.

You don't have to farm.

Nothing.

You just play the mech you want.

You get C-Bills.

And then you buy what you want.

Me fex, got more C-Bills then I can spend on reasonable things and I got 22 mechs.

So, if you are not aiming for owning every variant in the game, (like it or not)...

...WHERE IS THE GRIND?

1/10

[El Bandito]

I already gave up on owning all mech's. As much as I like blowing stuff up and get my kills racked up, I hate using the same exact mech variant and build over and over again (because that build is the best IMO). Gets tiring easily.

Consequently I am not using all my free hours on MWO, but instead spending most on Borderlands 2.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 February 2013 - 03:31 AM.

[Knobby]

Norris J Packard, on 15 February 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

The grind stems from the fact that currently, unless you have Premium, on a good win you'll make around 120k.

Accounting for small pauses between each match, and extra-ordinarily long matches plus the occasional lost match, the Average Player without Premium makes around 500-600k per hour. With Premium this number is inflated to around 1m-1.2m.

Premium only adds 50%, so assuming your first estimate is correct, the second estimate should be around 750k-900k.

Anyways, i think there is a grind in this game, and its a grind for cbills. However, it's not nearly as big a grind as in other f2p games, and i think there easily comes a point where one has such an amount of cbills that one would be hard pressed to spend it all.

I also think there should be more skills to research on every mech. As it is now you quickly accumulate so much mech xp that you cannot do anything with.

[Norris J Packard]

Knobby, on 15 February 2013 - 03:31 AM, said:

Premium only adds 50%, so assuming your first estimate is correct, the second estimate should be around 750k-900k.

Anyways, i think there is a grind in this game, and its a grind for cbills. However, it's not nearly as big a grind as in other f2p games, and i think there easily comes a point where one has such an amount of cbills that one would be hard pressed to spend it all.

I also think there should be more skills to research on every mech. As it is now you quickly accumulate so much mech xp that you cannot do anything with.

I'm aware it adds 50%, however in all frankness I don't play with anyone that lacks Premium and makes more then 700k~ an hour, at most. And I am talking not a single lost game, they did good every time. This does not reflect the Average Player. Meanwhile I routinely pull in 1.2m an hour. I am just telling you what I've noticed, but I believe this is because the Average Player with Premium is doing 4-mans or 8-mans. The Average Player without it is solo-dropping.

Edited by Norris J Packard, 15 February 2013 - 03:39 AM.

[Protoculture]

Norris J Packard, on 15 February 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

I'm aware it adds 50%, however in all frankness I don't play with anyone that lacks Premium and makes more then 700k~ an hour, at most. And I am talking not a single lost game, they did good every time. This does not reflect the Average Player. Meanwhile I routinely pull in 1.2m an hour. I am just telling you what I've noticed, but I believe this is because the Average Player with Premium is doing 4-mans or 8-mans. The Average Player without it is solo-dropping.

Yea, to me that's probably the biggest issue right there. Pre-mades win vs PUGs almost always. So if you're in a pre-made that always wins + premium + hero/founder mechs (which you clearly have) I could see where you think the grind is more tolerable.

For the PUG it's hellacious, even with premium and hero/found mechs. I have over 800 matches W/L is negative and always has been, K/D is positive but it doesn't matter. At this point rewards are almost entirely damage based anyway and tagging people for assist credits.

Every day that I've played, I stopped because the grind of being forced to either play variants of the mech I want to pilot instead of the one I want to pilot, or being forced to grind xp/cbills on the mechs I like but am having to grind out **** for something else got to me and I went to play something else. Forced is the key word here. That is what grind is.

[armyof1]

Skizzak, on 15 February 2013 - 03:22 AM, said:

Basically this. I don't really want to put another 2,025,000cbills into something I'm going to sell after I get the rest of basic done Just so I can fit a bigger engine. My 3L has a XL 280 but I think i read somewhere that the 2X, 4X can't have an engine bigger than XL245. So I would have to buy that as well.

2,025,000 + 4,001,583 = 6,026,583

I think that is a terrible investment just to make the 2X even viable especially since I'm going to be selling it anyway.

Did you sell the XL215 that came with your R3L? If not you can put that in there, which will boost you up to 100kph at least.

[Ragor]

Fred013, on 15 February 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

I am a total F2P player and have spent no money on this game. It would take me a month to buy an Awesome, because I would have to save up.

Edit: what's wrong with the raven 2X?

A clanmate of me is a 100% F2P player as well. He managed to grind his first 10 million (used it for a fully customized Cicada of 9.8million -> an Awesome is cheaper!) using trials mechs only within 4 evenings of ~6h of gaming each. And this was before the cadet bonus of ~8 million.

So if you really grind one months for one Awesome then

#1 you only play very few hours a week

or

#2 something seriously goes wrong on your side. (no offense)

[Nikoleus]

When we get real purpose to fight, i mean faction wars and other stuff...? then all the games we play feels a less grindy. Because then there is an another reason to play. Now it's just playing same maps and same game types over and over again to get some c-bills. When you play to gain advantage to your faction, gaining c-bills is not a main purpose to fight anymore.

[Skizzak]

armyof1, on 15 February 2013 - 03:50 AM, said:

Did you sell the XL215 that came with your R3L? If not you can put that in there, which will boost you up to 100kph at least.

I think I did in order to pick up the XL280 for my 3L faster. It was late one night and I really really really wanted to pilot a completed 3L before I hit the sack. It's all good though 100kph wouldnt be much of a difference either. Most mediums would still be able to chase me down. I only got 4kxp left in order to complete basic on the 2X then its onto the 4X. Might try a guass on it for the lulz.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

I do not see any grind in this game if I play mechs I like.I already have mastered catapults(C1,C4,K2) and Stalkers(3F,5S,5M) and ECM Atlas+ECM commando which I play rarely.
I have over 25 millions c-bills w8ing for Trebuchets to complete my medium,heavy and Assault LRM boats.
If I play now I dont grind.I just enjoy this game with friends from HHoD on TS3.Even if I xp up mech I still enjoy game.
Its not like LoL where you have to grind 3 days 16 hours per day playing to get you favourite hero...It is grind you looking for T_T.

[Ilwrath]

El Bandito, on 15 February 2013 - 03:28 AM, said:

Consequently I am not using all my free hours on MWO, but instead spending most on Borderlands 2.

I started up Tribes Ascend again. I was sure I would never ever play that again but a long break is pure magic. Its really fun again.

Right now I am tempted to take a huge bite out of the crap-sandwich and patch up WoT and, ugh horror, fix all the tweaks and addons for the new version.

Grinding up some more in this game is pointless. I have cash to get whatever new mech they will roll out.




Its not that it has felt like a grind. The game has been fun but now it really need some serious new content and better matchmaking. I see more and more premades and even sync drops in this game. Not really interested in that crap anymore.

[FerretGR]

WolvesX, on 15 February 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

You just play the mech you want.

...WHERE IS THE GRIND?

What if you want to play more than one mech? What if you want to play ALL the mechs?

There's no grind for you because you drive a single mech. Variety is the spice of life.

[Havyek]

If you want to whine about "grinding" the RVN 2X, jump in a SDR 5K.

Try and get more than 100 damage with a MPLAS and 4 MGUNS. I DARE YOU!!!

[FerretGR]

Ragor, on 15 February 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

A clanmate of me is a 100% F2P player as well. He managed to grind his first 10 million (used it for a fully customized Cicada of 9.8million -> an Awesome is cheaper!) using trials mechs only within 4 evenings of ~6h of gaming each. And this was before the cadet bonus of ~8 million.

So it took your buddy, playing with his clan (which means almost guaranteed wins), about 24 hours to grind out a custom Cicada. An average PUG player, like the player you're responding to, is losing much more frequently (I assume, no offense bud), and so is probably taking about twice as long to reach the same level of c-bills. So 48 (very conservatively) estimated hours of grind.

Now, perhaps in your clan, it's normal for folks to play for 6 hours a day, but most normal adults don't have that kind of time to devote to gaming after job and wife and kids and whatnot. Let's say the poster you were referring to plays a generous 2 hours a day, which is probably still well above average... we're talking about 24 days to grind out an Awesome. So...

Ragor, on 15 February 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

#1 you only play very few hours a week

or

#2 something seriously goes wrong on your side. (no offense)

#1. 14 hours is a significant amount from my perspective

#2. he's average at worst; there's nothing "seriously wrong," and you need to check your math.

[Ragor]

FerretGR, on 15 February 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

So it took your buddy, playing with his clan (which means almost guaranteed wins), about 24 hours to grind out a custom Cicada. An average PUG player, like the player you're responding to, is losing much more frequently (I assume, no offense bud), and so is probably taking about twice as long to reach the same level of c-bills. So 48 (very conservatively) estimated hours of grind.

Now, perhaps in your clan, it's normal for folks to play for 6 hours a day, but most normal adults don't have that kind of time to devote to gaming after job and wife and kids and whatnot. Let's say the poster you were referring to plays a generous 2 hours a day, which is probably still well above average... we're talking about 24 days to grind out an Awesome. So...



#1. 14 hours is a significant amount from my perspective

#2. he's average at worst; there's nothing "seriously wrong," and you need to check your math.

An adult person has usually a job. So he earns money for his daily work.
So it is his choice to stay F2P and not pay for his product of choice he is using to spent his limited free time on.
Fine with me.
Or he has no job and can't afford paying for it?
Then he should have the needed time to spend on staying F2P.


And as a sidenote:
Being part of clan/unit does not mean to play constantly in a premade.
Nor does it mean that every unit is playing to win and are organized.
Some are even just together in a premade, they don't coordinate at all in battle or select/configure their mechs before the match with focus on teamplay.
Some units even allow trial mechs in their roster since they are not artifically competetive during PUG games.

Crazy world, isn't it?

Edited by Ragor, 15 February 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[Rahnu]

Ragor, on 15 February 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

4 evenings of ~6h of gaming each.

That's 24 hours of gaming.

Twenty-four hours. For ONE MECH.

I think your perspective is skewed, as I consider that an enormous amount of playtime for the gain. Few players will go for 6-hour sessions or even 3-hour sessions, due to myriads of factors, including, y'know, being employed, having family to deal with, having other interests, and so on and so forth.

Not everyone playing the game is unemployed/part-time employed or a college student with loads of free time.

Obviously, there is the argument that someone who is employed is likely to also have more disposable income... but you also have to consider the value proposition. A lot of players, after seeing the amount of time it takes to attain a single mech through normal play, are going to see it as "grindy". When they see that they have to level up three variants of a particular chassis for the elite bonus, they're going to see it as "grindy". These things alone are going to turn players off. It doesn't matter what YOU think, it matters what THEY think, because they're not the hardcore types and, yes, they may indeed have disposable income that they're not letting go with because they feel like they're being played or ripped off.

One thing that League of Legends has going for it is that you only level up your main account, and that's it. You don't have to level champions individually or any such claptrap; once you've leveled your account, that's it, you're done. MWO, meanwhile, requires you to level up three times PER CHASSIS just to be on even footing with other players who have done the same. That doesn't feel good. Furthermore, you have an unlimited number of champion slots right off the bat - you're not artificially limited in the number of champions you can own, other than how much you can afford with your IP and RP. Again, superior value proposition. Even more than that, they also have a "first win of the day bonus" that allows players with less free time to keep up with more hardcore players in the IP department (though it's still not enough on its own to give you the IP to buy a champion every two weeks, it's far better than requiring twenty-four hours of play to buy a single assault mech).

Frankly, I think you have to be at least a little bit delusional to think that this game has no "grind". It most definitely has "grind", if you define "grind" in this case as "required progression in order to play on even footing with other players" (It used to just be "repetitive gameplay that isn't fun" in my mind, but I've since amended it because, frankly, way too many games have started using this new system and it's really bringing down my enjoyment level far too much). When you feel like your gameplay was disproportionately affected because you didn't have your mech leveled up all the way, it's a bad, bad feeling. The devs SHOULD be making sure the player feels like they have an internal locus of control, as opposed to the current situation where you have far too many factors that feel completely out of your hands (ECM, matchmaking, mech leveling, upgrades like DHS, random component destruction, lag shield, and so on).

I really hope the revised skills in the future rectify this situation, because I can't imagine the game actually growing at this rate. There're just far too many barriers to entry in the game as it is.

[FerretGR]

Ragor, on 15 February 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Crazy world, isn't it?

Why are you being snarky with me?

I don't know why the poster you responded doesn't want to buy premium time; that's none of my business. It's irrelevant, at any rate: I'm just talking numbers, and your numbers were being used to minimize what, for casual or average players, is a significant amount of grind. You were basing your "it only takes a couple of days" on someone playing far more than average and with a clan.

So your buddy, a member of a clan, decided to PUG for his grinding time? Suuuuure he did. As for "sometimes premades don't win," give me a break. I play with the most casual of casual groups, and when there's 4 of us, it's pretty much guaranteed wins (with the occasional loss). I don't know how often your buddy grouped with the clan, but if he grouped at all, he's a step ahead of most f2p players. It's disingenuous of any experienced player to claim otherwise: you're a founder, you must know that even the most uncoordinated group of randoms have an advantage as long as they have VOIP.

I'm not sure why you gave me a b.utthurt response. All I was doing was pointing out that your numbers are out of whack given that the average f2p player is different than the example you use, and that your concept of what is normal gaming time is skewed based on that example, and that by extension, your conclusion that there's something wrong with the guy you responded to is flawed. And it is. There's nothing wrong with that poster; he just plays less than your standard.

Edited by FerretGR, 15 February 2013 - 09:47 AM.

[Chunkylad]

I have too much fun to call it a grind. The only mechs I have had to "grind" xp for was the other variants of the Ravens and Spiders. Although, 12 jj's is WAY TOO FUN on a Spider..... did enjoy that.

Edited by Chunkylad, 15 February 2013 - 09:46 AM.

[Ragor]

FerretGR, on 15 February 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

(...)

I suppose it is all about the perspective:
In my world it isn't much time to grind 24h split up in several stints.
Playing 6h in a row isn't an issue on my side.
And me is above 30, having a full time job and a social life. And still it works out for me.

And still, if someone chooses to stay 100% F2P than it is his choice.

The post I initially responded to claimed, that someine has to play a full month to be able to afford an Awesome.

Would have been easier and more clear if he would have stated the hours he thinks it will take.

'Hey, it will take 4 years to buy a Hunchback. Ok, but I only play 1 match a month.'

What just -as always- really ****** me off are people which jump in and claim some BS out of their perspective.

"Being part of a clan means, he plays most of the time in a premade.
And premades are always coordinated and skilled players.
Premades always win. (Except when they loose.)
Being part of a premade is not what the average player is."

And between the lines always poiting out who great the own team is and how skilled everybody is and that they mop the floor with nearly any opposing team.


Yes, this kind of biased and blinder based statements really stink.

Simple as that.

And as soon as you reply - it is always taken as a personal attack. Without reflecting why this reply happened the way it is.

Nice black and white.

[FerretGR]

Ragor, on 15 February 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

The post I initially responded to claimed, that someine has to play a full month to be able to afford an Awesome.

And I showed you, mathematically, how for someone who plays for 2 hours a day and who is an average PUG player, that's an accurate statement.

Ragor, on 15 February 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

"Being part of a clan means, he plays most of the time in a premade.
And premades are always coordinated and skilled players.
Premades always win. (Except when they loose.)
Being part of a premade is not what the average player is."

And between the lines always poiting out who great the own team is and how skilled everybody is and that they mop the floor with nearly any opposing team.

You're obviously referring to me here, and you obviously didn't process what I said if you think I was talking about my team's skill or greatness. What do you think "most casual of casual groups" means? It means we're not skilled, and we're not great, and despite this, the simple act of grouping gives us enough of an advantage that we win consistently. We play with people of all skill levels, people with and without mics, we have no entrance requirements or organization of any kind, we have no practices, we don't care what mech you take. We're a glorified PUG with VOIP. We are not good and yet we manage to win because of the VOIP. Nothing between these lines I hope: clear enough for you?

As for your mangled quoting of me:
1. I'd be surprised if your buddy is a member of a clan and yet did that grinding in PUG groups, but if you want to carry that story forward, I'll take your word for it.
2. see above paragraph. premades can be quite unskilled, and the ones I play with (myself included) are no exception.
3. premades DO almost always win. or are you playing a different game than me?
4. if we're talking about average f2p player, I'd say that's a true statement. by all accounts, ie. data provided by devs, non-grouped players outnumber grouped players significantly.

Ragor, on 15 February 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

What just -as always- really ****** me off are people which jump in and claim some BS out of their perspective.
Yes, this kind of biased and blinder based statements really stink.

How is your forcing of YOUR perspective on the poster you respond to, telling him he's either playing too little, or there's something wrong with him, ie. he's doing it wrong, not what you're describing above? You are doing precisely what you're getting irate about.

Ragor, on 15 February 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

And as soon as you reply - it is always taken as a personal attack. Without reflecting why this reply happened the way it is.

YOU took my discussion of numbers as a personal attack. That's not how it always is, in my experience: that's all you. I certainly don't take every reply to my posts as a personal attack, and I'm not sure why you would. I'm not even really sure what you're saying here, to be honest... is there a language barrier here? Perhaps that's why you're not understanding me or taking my responses personally? All I can say is that my original post wasn't an attack and the opinions and statements you're attributing to me are for the most part not mine.