112 replies to this topic

[Snowblack]

It is strange. Mechs in the books and in the lore usually are equipped with a majority of different weapons. To have a fighting chance on most fights. They have LRM to soften up target, AC10 to hit hard and ML to finish off thing or to defend demselves in last resort.

Meaning mechs should be equiped to be allrounder or the like. Most mech in the lore are such except the specialist. Most Brawler mech have a large laser or LRM 5-10 to hit long.
Most Fire support mechs have an ML or SRM to defend themselves in trouble.

Usually I play with this playstyle. Some long range, some hard hitting stuff, and some Medium laser to save ammo. I cant say I dish out 1500 dmg in a game with LRMS or kill 3-4 mechs with SSRM2 or SRM6. But I always have an answer to whaterver I encounter. In most ranges.

But today the most powerful mech are the boats. They max out a certain range.
Like the SRM spaltcat, which does tremendous damage close range but nothing from 300m.
Or LRM boat which is defensless under 190m. They are supperb in their range but useless in others. They are specialist.

But in the lore there are few sush mech right? But in MWO most people build such things. Its not that bad but its strange for me. If its for a lance and its role I thinks it okay.

SO mix setup mechbuild OR MIN-MAX style? Are they bad or necessity?

[Apoc1138]

My Atlases tend to go with something along the line of;

2 large lasers - good at range and in close (though higher heat per damage than say 4 mediums)
2 UAC5's (again, good at longish range, great up close as well)
2-3 SSRM2's / SRM6's - dedicated short range punch / light mech counter

seems pretty balanced to me in terms of ranges and abilities

my hunchback-SP has the stock loadout (4 mediums and 2 SRM6's)

my 4X cataphract has 2 gauss or 4 AC/5's and 2 medium lasers... again, some long range and some short range

I don't run any builds that only have really short range weapons, or only longrange weapons with no short range backup

boats that only have one weapon type CAN be deadly in the right circumstances, but they also have downsides that require careful timing and skill to avoid allowing them to be exploited

Edited by Apoc1138, 15 February 2013 - 04:09 AM.

[l33tworks]

Jack of all trades, master of none. Its almost a universal law in any field...

Edited by l33tworks, 15 February 2013 - 04:14 AM.

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

Most base mech builds are also really bad, though, even in tabletop BT. Oftentimes intentionally so, like with the Hermes II, Charger, or Banshee.

[Skizzak]

Snowblack, on 15 February 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

But today the most powerful mech are the boats. They max out a certain range.
Like the SRM spaltcat, which does tremendous damage close range but nothing from 300m.
Or LRM boat which is defensless under 190m. They are supperb in their range but useless in others. They are specialist.

Boats are only the most powerful mechs in their given area. They aren't the most powerful overall. A SRM boat is going to only be powerful up close where as a LRM boat will be powerful from afar. The key is to try and fight them where they are the weakest. Dictate the terms in which you battle the one trick ponies.

I'm against anything that is going to limit customization of mechs however. If some1 wants to boat let them but I'm not going to fight on a boats terms. (Such as facechecking a Splatcat)

[Sean von Steinike]

Since we do not undergo specialized training like a lore mechwarrior, the fewer weapon systems you have to manage, the easier it will be for your average gamer to manage which probably accounts for some of the builds. I do way better with just one or two weapon groupings. If I hit 4 groupings I start loosing control of things, not firing some of the weapons when I should.

[Apoc1138]

Zharot, on 15 February 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

Most base mech builds are also really bad, though, even in tabletop BT. Oftentimes intentionally so, like with the Hermes II, Charger, or Banshee.

not neccessarily, if you think of large battlefield military settings, having a multi engagement capability on all of your mechs means that you can maximise combined arms fire across a range of engagement envelopes at all times... however in this game, we're fighting much smaller squad sized or even 1 on 1 engagements where it's a case of whoever has maximised the most appropriate loadout for the range you are at, wins that engagement

[lsp]

My dragon does it all.( I can fight at range if I need to) GR 4mlas srm4, and you don't need to be a boater to get 4+ kills in a game, do it frequently. Also disagree with the every mech should be a generalized mech that does everything badly, instead of one thing well. Use the military as a example, there's a reason why squads/platoons are made up of composition. Not every infantry man has a machine gun or a saw, not every infantry man has a 203 or has the same combat life saving training as a medic.
One person can't do it all, neither can a machine, other wise we wouldn't have stryker's or m1's or bradleys. Everything fills it's role and the same should be of mechwarrior.

Edited by lsp, 15 February 2013 - 04:31 AM.

[Dirkdaring]

In lore, the mechs have to fight on a variety of terrain.

In this game every map caters to short range engagements.

[Yokaiko]

Snowblack, on 15 February 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

It is strange. Mechs in the books and in the lore usually are equipped with a majority of different weapons. To have a fighting chance on most fights. They have LRM to soften up target, AC10 to hit hard and ML to finish off thing or to defend demselves in last resort.

Meaning mechs should be equiped to be allrounder or the like. Most mech in the lore are such except the specialist. Most Brawler mech have a large laser or LRM 5-10 to hit long.
Most Fire support mechs have an ML or SRM to defend themselves in trouble.

Usually I play with this playstyle. Some long range, some hard hitting stuff, and some Medium laser to save ammo. I cant say I dish out 1500 dmg in a game with LRMS or kill 3-4 mechs with SSRM2 or SRM6. But I always have an answer to whaterver I encounter. In most ranges.

But today the most powerful mech are the boats. They max out a certain range.
Like the SRM spaltcat, which does tremendous damage close range but nothing from 300m.
Or LRM boat which is defensless under 190m. They are supperb in their range but useless in others. They are specialist.

But in the lore there are few sush mech right? But in MWO most people build such things. Its not that bad but its strange for me. If its for a lance and its role I thinks it okay.

SO mix setup mechbuild OR MIN-MAX style? Are they bad or necessity?

You neglected map design.

There is no real need or reason to use a direct fire sniper, anything you can do with those long range weapons you can do in less than ten seconds with brawling weapons, after you move a couple hundred meters.

On every map except caustic you can shoot edge to edge with a Guass or ER-PPC much less LRMs.

The maps encourage a brawling bent. To that end I do often try to work in a couple weapons that are good in the mid-long range, but my main weapons are almost always going to be closer range, simply because you WILL have mechs getting into your face and there isn't always people available to save you.

[Snowblack]

l33tworks, on 15 February 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

Jack of all trades, master of none. Its almost a universal law in any field...

Yeah I know. SRM cats kill me under 100m and LRM cat over 200m but I KILL them in the other ranges.

Meaning I can kill them at the proper range. Both of them but they are only good at their own range.

But its true that Im not the master dps in any ranges.

[Skizzak]

Yokaiko, on 15 February 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

You neglected map design.

There is no real need or reason to use a direct fire sniper, anything you can do with those long range weapons you can do in less than ten seconds with brawling weapons, after you move a couple hundred meters.

On every map except caustic you can shoot edge to edge with a Guass or ER-PPC much less LRMs.

The maps encourage a brawling bent. To that end I do often try to work in a couple weapons that are good in the mid-long range, but my main weapons are almost always going to be closer range, simply because you WILL have mechs getting into your face and there isn't always people available to save you.

I agree but 6ppcs on a stalker is hilarious. One alpha and you take off a limb. Or headshotting a Cata as he comes over a hill. Although maps are mostly brawlfest, sniping has its moments.

[Joseph Mallan]

Snowblack, on 15 February 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

It is strange. Mechs in the books and in the lore usually are equipped with a majority of different weapons. To have a fighting chance on most fights. They have LRM to soften up target, AC10 to hit hard and ML to finish off thing or to defend demselves in last resort.

Meaning mechs should be equiped to be allrounder or the like. Most mech in the lore are such except the specialist. Most Brawler mech have a large laser or LRM 5-10 to hit long.
Most Fire support mechs have an ML or SRM to defend themselves in trouble.

Usually I play with this playstyle. Some long range, some hard hitting stuff, and some Medium laser to save ammo. I cant say I dish out 1500 dmg in a game with LRMS or kill 3-4 mechs with SSRM2 or SRM6. But I always have an answer to whaterver I encounter. In most ranges.

But today the most powerful mech are the boats. They max out a certain range.
Like the SRM spaltcat, which does tremendous damage close range but nothing from 300m.
Or LRM boat which is defensless under 190m. They are supperb in their range but useless in others. They are specialist.

But in the lore there are few sush mech right? But in MWO most people build such things. Its not that bad but its strange for me. If its for a lance and its role I thinks it okay.

SO mix setup mechbuild OR MIN-MAX style? Are they bad or necessity?

Longbow, Naginata, Charger, Victor, Battlemaster, Hunchback, Jenner, Catapult, Commando, Atlas, Awesome All range specific Boats. Almost all with variants that are Canon weapon boats. This is a combat game. in combat you win by bringing more death to the field than your opponent. For every LRM boat, a team needs a Splatcat. Overlapping fields of fire and all that silly tactical/strategic mumbo jumbo. The best teams can apply destruction at long range and death at close. I've seen a few that blend this symphony of destruction very well. They kick your/our butts with impunity. Instead of whining about it, learn from their victory and try to come up with something to counter it.

Good luck coming up with a better solution than be better at all ranges with properly baoted load outs!

[Yokaiko]

Skizzak, on 15 February 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

I agree but 6ppcs on a stalker is hilarious. One alpha and you take off a limb. Or headshotting a Cata as he comes over a hill. Although maps are mostly brawlfest, sniping has its moments.

Yeah until someone notices you. 6PPC stalkers have got me all of twice ...ever. Once you get under 90m you just leg hump and slaughter.

Now there was a team that had 3 of them, that was an issue, but half of the issue was that it was a pug so getting a coordinated strike against them was impossible they won by killing everything that tried to play peek a boo.

...because playing peek a boo on the ridge when there are 18 PPCs waiting for it...obviously a winning strat there.

Edited by Yokaiko, 15 February 2013 - 04:41 AM.

[arkani]

"Lore/cannon" is based on books/novels written by writers. Most of them have no formal military training.
None of them ever piloted a mech. Some books pre-date current military technology.

Mechwarrior games are the simulation of that lore/cannon/books/novels.
I say that maybe, from now on, the guys that write the "lore/cannon", should take a look on what happens in these sim games, because probably what happens on the games would have been very similar to what would have happen in a "real mechwarrior era".

As a hint, you will see that some battles rage for hours, with both sides trading blows, until now i have yet to find a game that lasted more than 10 minutes. And usually when the battles begins its a matter of minutes to have 8 mechs blown to pieces.

Specializations is a corner stone in anything miltary.

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

arkani, on 15 February 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

None of them ever piloted a mech.

Neither have you. What the hell is this? Battlemechs aren't real.

[Skizzak]

Yokaiko, on 15 February 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

Yeah until someone notices you. 6PPC stalkers have got me all of twice ...ever. Once you get under 90m you just leg hump and slaughter.

Now there was a team that had 3 of them, that was an issue, but half of the issue was that it was a pug so getting a coordinated strike against them was impossible they won by killing everything that tried to play peek a boo.

...because playing peek a boo on the ridge when there are 18 PPCs waiting for it...obviously a winning strat there.

Well of course. I wasnt stating that they are invincible every one trick pony has an obvious weak spot. I get facechecked by any good player who knows what will kill a 6ppc stalker. It doens't negate the hilarity of the build tho.

[FerretGR]

The reality of MWO is that a team of specialists is better than a team of jack-of-all-trades. The secret is that those specialists rarely operate as a truly cohesive unit outside of the 8-mans so there is a c.hink (really??) somewhere in the armor that you just need to find... ie. track down the SRM boat who went out alone because he though he was invincible and shoot him to pieces from 280m; flank around the LRM boat and catch him by surprise and undefended, hug the PPC guy, cap the slow lumbering Atlas lance, what have you.

Edited by FerretGR, 15 February 2013 - 04:46 AM.

[arkani]

Zharot, on 15 February 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

Neither have you. What the hell is this? Battlemechs aren't real.

Sarcasm my friend, check the dictionary.
Like the kids say : "DuHHH"

[Snowblack]

Hey Im not whinig.

1 team role play is different, a balanced team may consints of different boats.

Im mainly pugging so I dont have a balanced team behind me and had to solve problems myself. And never said about better solution to be an alrounder than boat.

Edited by Snowblack, 15 February 2013 - 04:48 AM.