112 replies to this topic

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Weapon boats are reliant on good teamwork.
Balanced loadouts are reliant on good pilots.

Which do you think is easier.

[smokefield]

although i try to cover all range with at least one weapon...in this game, especcialy because of the maps and play style, you do much better as a boat. and i suppose it will stay like this forever, at least until we will have some community warfare with objectives and much more diversity in the maps/terrain.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I've really tried hard to do the multiple ranges. But in the end I tend to revert back to 3 SRM6/2Mlas, 2 LRM15/2Mlas, 4 Large Lasers, etc.

The maps are just downright choking the game at this point. And the Omnimech Mechlab we have isn't helping as well.

[Wales Grey]

Snowblack, on 15 February 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

But in the lore there are few sush mech right? But in MWO most people build such things. Its not that bad but its strange for me. If its for a lance and its role I thinks it okay.

SO mix setup mechbuild OR MIN-MAX style? Are they bad or necessity?

Optimizing a mech for a task is a good thing. Every ounce of utility you can wring out of the design parameters is a net benefit to you as a pilot. Multi-role mechs do have a place, but in the current state of MWO, generalist designs will almost always get their junk shoved in by specialists. The team sizes aren't large enough for generalists to be useful.

smokefield, on 15 February 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

although i try to cover all range with at least one weapon...in this game, especcialy because of the maps and play style, you do much better as a boat. and i suppose it will stay like this forever, at least until we will have some community warfare with objectives and much more diversity in the maps/terrain.

Mechwarrior/Battletech has always been about boating. Always.

Edited by Wales Grey, 15 February 2013 - 12:06 PM.

[jay35]

TheForce, on 15 February 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Every multiplayer implementation of MW has been MinmaxWarrior. It sucks for Btech/MechWarrior fans because instead of playing out games like in the lore, we are forced to build splatcats and PPC boats to be effective.

The only way around this is to enforce specific rules for each game (ie: no more than 2 of one weapon type, etc.), or stock mech battles.

It turns out a lot of people are interested in stock mech battles: http://mwomercs.com/...only-game-mode/

And that's the correct solution: Offer a separate game mode for people who want to fantasy roleplay and artificially restrict themselves and their loadouts. Leave the main game alone, for the majority of the players that are here for more serious mech combat.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

jay35, on 15 February 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

for the majority of the players that are here for more serious mech combat.

I don't even have anything to say...just have to lol @ this.

[Vasces Diablo]

The fact is that boating just works better in a game like this. It allows you to focus your play. You do everything you can to got into the space where you'll dominate and everything you can to avoid your weak spots.

Simply put, it makes playing easier and often more efficient. The moment we were allowed to customize load out, boating is the unavoidable result.

I for one, wish we only allowd to use tha canon (sp?) variants, but that's ship has sailed I suppose.

[Whompity]

I tend to not have a WIDE variety of weapons on my mechs because I like to keep the fighting simple... More than 3 weapon groups and there's too much thinking involved (and mouse buttons).

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Yeah I have that problem, I really need to get a mouse with 3 or 4 buttons.

[SectionZ]

It's not boating if you brought a single medium laser alongside four large ones, right? Oh god please tell me I'm not Min/Maxing with my 1X.

Speaking of boating Cataphracts, what is the consensuses on all those Three LBX10 (and nothing else) Ilya's I keep seeing? Are people afraid of this Min/Maxing ballistic boater design? Do they feel they are at an unfair disadvantage against them?

Stock Only already has a game mode. It's called "Kerensky Night", and it's even more hardcore because you don't get to pick your mech options.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

LBX is baaaaaaaaaad. UAC5 Illya's are scary.

Unfortunately the 4 Large Laser 1X is boating. That is my current Cata.

[SectionZ]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 February 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

LBX is baaaaaaaaaad. UAC5 Illya's are scary.

Unfortunately the 4 Large Laser 1X is boating. That is my current Cata.

But, but, I got a medium laser too! Oh god my life is a lie.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Time to go off yourself, sorry.

[Khobai]

There are ways to mitigate min-maxing while at the same time encouraging more canon builds. For example, if mechs got a bonuses for using weapons its stock variant would have.

For example:
An Atlas-K might get a 10% damage reduction to its torso sections if it uses both Gauss and XL.
An Atlas-D might get +5% heat efficiency and -5% cooldown on its weapons if it uses both an AC/20 and LRM/20.
An Awesome 9M might get -1 heat on ER PPCs and +5% heat efficiency if it has three or more ER PPCs
etc...

I mean really anything that encourages players to leave their comfort zone and play something other than a mech with as many medlas, lrglas, srm6s, uac5s, gauss, etc... is a good thing.

Edited by Khobai, 15 February 2013 - 01:26 PM.

[Lycrin]

Okay one thing people need to keep in mind is that most of these mechs where (in accordance to Battletech lore) made to face a variety of enemy forces and not all of them even being other battlemechs. I know light mechs like the flea and the spider where actually designed to fight infantry and light vehicles.

Also, given that MWO pits players against other enemy mechs in a more gladatorial competition rather than have other unit types and objectives present you can expect that most people will see it as a good idea to min-max for such a specific combat role. And personally I can't really judge anyone for making min-max builds at all.

[Zero Neutral]

Snowblack, on 15 February 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

It is strange. Mechs in the books and in the lore usually are equipped with a majority of different weapons. To have a fighting chance on most fights. They have LRM to soften up target, AC10 to hit hard and ML to finish off thing or to defend demselves in last resort.

Meaning mechs should be equiped to be allrounder or the like. Most mech in the lore are such except the specialist. Most Brawler mech have a large laser or LRM 5-10 to hit long.
Most Fire support mechs have an ML or SRM to defend themselves in trouble.

Usually I play with this playstyle. Some long range, some hard hitting stuff, and some Medium laser to save ammo. I cant say I dish out 1500 dmg in a game with LRMS or kill 3-4 mechs with SSRM2 or SRM6. But I always have an answer to whaterver I encounter. In most ranges.

But today the most powerful mech are the boats. They max out a certain range.
Like the SRM spaltcat, which does tremendous damage close range but nothing from 300m.
Or LRM boat which is defensless under 190m. They are supperb in their range but useless in others. They are specialist.

But in the lore there are few sush mech right? But in MWO most people build such things. Its not that bad but its strange for me. If its for a lance and its role I thinks it okay.

SO mix setup mechbuild OR MIN-MAX style? Are they bad or necessity?

Optimizing for a certain range is pretty obvious for me, I do it with all of my builds.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I get a little tired of reading these "Mechs were optimized for fighting against mixed forces" posts.

That was true to an extent, but when you start reading the books after the clans entered into the fray, even the later mechs which were seeing more mech vs mech combat than anything else were sporting multiple range-type weapons.

The whole thing is stupid because in the end the game isn't balanced properly for boating. That is the problem. The game is balanced for diverse weapon set-ups.

The whole ECM debacle never would've shown up if it weren't for boating streaks and LRM's. And i'd imagine we're going to see some issues when the PPC ECM effect goes in and more PPC boating occurs, especially after the heat "fix".

[Xavier Wulf]

By focusing on either long range or close range, you limit yourself when you need to fight at the opposite extreme. Example: LRM boats will be helpless to the Jenner that sneaks behind it. SRM boats will be helpless to the snipers/LRMs. It balances in its own way and playstyle.

I would personally never make a build that would give an opportunity to be completely useless in these situations (EX: Stalker with LRMS but I also have ML incase a light wants to take me out. or Streak SRMs on my Centurion with a Gauss so that I can easily hit annoying lights)

[FerretGR]

Xavier Wulf, on 15 February 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

By focusing on either long range or close range, you limit yourself when you need to fight at the opposite extreme. Example: LRM boats will be helpless to the Jenner that sneaks behind it. SRM boats will be helpless to the snipers/LRMs. It balances in its own way and playstyle.

LOL... I once saw a match where a defenseless LRM-boating Stalker was the last guy on the team, and gave up when he realized he couldn't get any distance between him and the fast mechs who were chewing him apart... he just powered down. It was kind of sad!

That's boating. Stop worrying about it and go beat them.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Sorry, long range boating is not the same as short range boating. And you definitely can't compare LRM's. If you were going to compare, compare ER PPC's or Large Lasers to short range boating.

Comparing an LRM boat to other boats do not work though.

Right now maps favor anyone who is sporting short range weapons for the reasons stated above. The problems with Catapults is they can use XL engines and are 65 tons, and have some of the nastiest load outs in the game.

So they can basically get within 270m of anyone without breaking cover.