153 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

Maybe we should just call it MechWOW too, and get some healers and tanks goin?

[Hotthedd]

DeadlyNerd, on 17 February 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

do please explain how this could give anyone ANY advantage. *Number 5 pops out over the mech you hit"... I can't see how that's going to help anyone but a newbie who needs to be shown if he did damage...

"NEEDS" to be shown if he did damage?!?

First of all, the reticle turns red if you deal damage. The enemy paperdoll lights up showing WHERE you dealt damage. The weapon fired gives you a good idea HOW much damage you did.

Secondly, your definition of the term "NEEDS" is way off.

[DeadlyNerd]

Hotthedd, on 17 February 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

"NEEDS" to be shown if he did damage?!?

First of all, the reticle turns red if you deal damage. The enemy paperdoll lights up showing WHERE you dealt damage. The weapon fired gives you a good idea HOW much damage you did.

Secondly, your definition of the term "NEEDS" is way off.

Ok then einstein, explain how a newbie is supposed to know whether he did 1 damage or 5 damage, depending on how far his target is.
Oh right, he's going to check range, and then divide the top damage of his weapons by the range to maximum weapon range ratio. Go figure why people can't aim in this game, they're too busy calculating their damage.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 17 February 2013 - 01:03 PM.

[XphR]

The problem with "But the other games do it" argument is it will always fail. The initial problem with floaty numbers is the arcade like feeling of 'Ive dropped my quarter in so start with the Pew Pew', after that you have to deal with representing or not representing incremental damage.. arbitrary armor counts on seemingly identical as well as drastically different builds (sure you did twenty damage and the last Atlas fell over how come this ones still in my face at twenty five?).

Thats why Mechwarriors learn to play with generalized (for ease of use{one form that can represent many}) paper dolls (sometimes also status bars in previous iterations {alleged to be a future MW:o possibility}) that show condition dynamically. The target reticules strobe on damage (friend or foe) and thats the cue to look at the paper doll for damage location. I know this can be difficult in the heat of battle but thats kind of the point. Pushing through the stresses and difficulty to attain the goal.

I do hope that the training ground is set up to aid a pilots preparation in this area. It would be nice if the training took place in a SimPod environment, target dummies that output a visual active damage count in some way, roll in the floaty numbers then and only there.

Edited by XphR, 17 February 2013 - 06:53 PM.

[Hotthedd]

DeadlyNerd, on 17 February 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Ok then einstein, explain how a newbie is supposed to know whether he did 1 damage of 5 damage, depending on how far his target is.
Oh right, he's going to check range, and then divide the top damage of his weapons by the range to maximum weapon range ratio. Go figure why people can't aim in this game, they're too busy calculating their damage.

He is going to do it like everybody else does it, approximate in his head.

If he has trouble with that, he could LEARN, like everybody else had to at some point.

The steep learning curve is an ASSET to this game. Hand-holding is for OTHER games.

Face it, not everyone is qualified to be a 'mechwarrior, the galaxy needs ditch diggers too.

(Good news: Anyone can LEARN to be a 'mechwarrior, but the honor is GIVEN to no one)

[DeadlyNerd]

Hotthedd, on 17 February 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

He is going to do it like everybody else does it, approximate in his head.

If he has trouble with that, he could LEARN, like everybody else had to at some point.

The steep learning curve is an ASSET to this game. Hand-holding is for OTHER games.

Face it, not everyone is qualified to be a 'mechwarrior, the galaxy needs ditch diggers too.

(Good news: Anyone can LEARN to be a 'mechwarrior, but the honor is GIVEN to no one)

Oh, so your logic is, if he can't enjoy the game due to some design holes it's better for him to leave with his wallet than do those few slight adjustments so he could enjoy the game and spend money.

And again, do explain how showing a newb what damage he's doing is considered hand holding? Nothing is telling him "aim for the side torso", "turn your side torso to spread out damage".
Heck, if you want hand holding, there's a whole guide forum full of it. Go tell those people to stop holding hands for newbs and that what they're doing is wrong.
Better yet, go tell the admins of this forum that the whole guide forum is too "hand holding" for this game.

[Hotthedd]

DeadlyNerd, on 17 February 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Oh, so your logic is, if he can't enjoy the game due to some design holes it's better for him to leave with his wallet than do those few slight adjustments so he could enjoy the game and spend money.

And again, do explain how showing a newb what damage he's doing is considered hand holding? Nothing is telling him "aim for the side torso", "turn your side torso to spread out damage".
Heck, if you want hand holding, there's a whole guide forum full of it. Go tell those people to stop holding hands for newbs and that what they're doing is wrong.
Better yet, go tell the admins of this forum that the whole guide forum is too "hand holding" for this game.

What YOU describe as "design holes", I describe as "immersion features".

If someone actively looks up information, they are not being coddled, they are being proactive.

Alienating a proven paying playerbase in the HOPE of attracting players that demand this arcade feature would be a bad business decision.

You seem to be taking this personally. Please don't.

[warner2]

With the option to turn it off, sure why not?

[MilitantMonk]

Oh god, I can imagine the spam as I run 360 degrees around a mech chain firing medium lasers.

[DeadlyNerd]

Hotthedd, on 17 February 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

What YOU describe as "design holes", I describe as "immersion features".

If someone actively looks up information, they are not being coddled, they are being proactive.

Alienating a proven paying playerbase in the HOPE of attracting players that demand this arcade feature would be a bad business decision.

You seem to be taking this personally. Please don't.

So apparently you'll get "alienated" just cause someone is seeing damage numbers and you're not? Must be really hard being your neighbor.
Please don't kill that guy who painted his den green just cause you don't like green, even though you'll probably never even meet the guy.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 17 February 2013 - 03:36 PM.

[Stringburka]

[Corvus Antaka]

a 2D HTAL BAR Graph would help a LOT here. The paperdoll was never as good at the bargraph for gauging exact damage values when in battle.

[Stringburka]

DeadlyNerd, on 17 February 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

So apparently you'll get "alienated" just cause someone is seeing damage numbers and you're not? Must be really hard being your neighbor.

From a tactical viewpoint, seeing damage numbers would be a great benefit - you know if you hit, you know exactly how well you hit et cetera. Thus, for competitive play, using it would be a major benefit. Thus, the team using it would have an edge on the team not using it. And so everyone who wants to play competitively will need to have it or be at a disadvantage.

Just like if say in CoD or some other FPS you put in a rainbow-and-unicorn gun that was the best weapon in the game, that'd kill immersion because those who don't want that kind of flavor will be forced to either use it regardless or be at a tactical disadvantage.

So, when it comes to stuff that give a tactical advantage, "don't like it don't use it" doesn't really works. It's the same regardless of whether it's floating numbers, silly weapons or 3rd person mode.

On a side-note, MWO should really have a unicorn launcher. Like, an AC-20 where they use a decapitated unicorn head instead of the bullet.

EDIT: HOWEVER, if they ever get around to it I could see a "training mode" that doesn't register kills/deaths, earn c-bills or stuff like that, where you're just dropped in a map (with or without other people) and can have 3rd person mode, floating numbers, or whatever you want just to get the hang of the game and test new stuff (god I'd love something like that for chillin' around and training my jumpjet skills without someone trying to kill me).
But that's far down the line.

Edited by Stringburka, 17 February 2013 - 03:49 PM.

[Sporklift]

Seeing as how getting anything over double digits is really hard in this game (unless you X10 the numbers) and there are a complete lack of critical damage multipliers, any numbers you get would be unimpressive. Plus that it would clash with the setting of the game and the sort of image they are trying to put forward,

[Ryvucz]

I'd rather it didn't.

[DeadlyNerd]

Stringburka, on 17 February 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

From a tactical viewpoint, seeing damage numbers would be a great benefit - you know if you hit, you know exactly how well you hit et cetera. Thus, for competitive play, using it would be a major benefit. Thus, the team using it would have an edge on the team not using it. And so everyone who wants to play competitively will need to have it or be at a disadvantage.

Just like if say in CoD or some other FPS you put in a rainbow-and-unicorn gun that was the best weapon in the game, that'd kill immersion because those who don't want that kind of flavor will be forced to either use it regardless or be at a tactical disadvantage.

So, when it comes to stuff that give a tactical advantage, "don't like it don't use it" doesn't really works. It's the same regardless of whether it's floating numbers, silly weapons or 3rd person mode.

On a side-note, MWO should really have a unicorn launcher. Like, an AC-20 where they use a decapitated unicorn head instead of the bullet.

EDIT: HOWEVER, if they ever get around to it I could see a "training mode" that doesn't register kills/deaths, earn c-bills or stuff like that, where you're just dropped in a map (with or without other people) and can have 3rd person mode, floating numbers, or whatever you want just to get the hang of the game and test new stuff (god I'd love something like that for chillin' around and training my jumpjet skills without someone trying to kill me).
But that's far down the line.

As the one who's currently kissing your behind, Hotthead, said, there's already a hit indicator so floating numbers wouldn't change that bit in no way.

Oh and you're talking about tactical advantage. Have this in mind

- internals can crit, and don't always have to be damaged fully
- damage done means squat when a couple of players are focusing fire
- how exactly would you know what part you hit for what damage with lasers and AoE weapons
- experienced players, whom everyone is so praising here, can easily assume what damage their weapon will do just by looking at the target's distance
- in the above case floating numbers will only act as a distraction

You know all these facts are true and if you do try to deny them, you'll only be denying yourself.

What I see here is fear, fear that newbs may get better than you elitist bunch, if they were given a little bit of help.
Well newbs keep this game alive and if this means more newbs, I couldn't care less whether they'd kick your *** or not.

EDIT: Again, this would be OPTIONAL, your game would be FINE, since none of you can comprehend that fact unless told explicitly.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 18 February 2013 - 04:56 AM.

[Hotthedd]

DeadlyNerd, on 18 February 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

As the one who's currently kissing your behind, Hotthead, said, there's already a hit indicator so floating numbers wouldn't change that bit in no way.

Oh and you're talking about tactical advantage. Have this in mind

- internals can crit, and don't always have to be damaged fully
- damage done means squat when a couple of players are focusing fire
- how exactly would you know what part you hit for what damage with lasers and AoE weapons
- experienced players, whom everyone is so praising here, can easily assume what damage their weapon will do just by looking at the target's distance
- in the above case floating numbers will only act as a distraction

You know all these facts are true and if you do try to deny them, you'll only be denying yourself.

What I see here is fear, fear that newbs may get better than you elitist bunch, if they were given a little bit of help.
Well newbs keep this game alive and if this means more newbs, I couldn't care less whether they'd kick your *** or not.

EDIT: Again, this would be OPTIONAL, your game would be FINE, since none of you can comprehend that fact unless told explicitly.

It shouldn't take too long for new players to get better than ME, I'm afraid .

But you are missing the bigger point. Crutches do not make players better. What MW:O needs is a better training area for new players.

Perhaps a cadet-only queue, or a sandbox mode that has all the things people seem to suggest (3rd person/respawns/etc.) that does NOT give C-bill rewards or XP, but lets them practice.

[Klaus]

No thanks.

[Donas]

The problem I have with having the devs work on an a damage indicator mechanism, regardless of whether its optional, is that it is a poor solution to the problem.

The problem is not that Joe Newguy doesnt know exactly what the diminishing returns are of his LLAS at 820m.

The problem is that there is no actual hands-on training available in-game other than getting your doors blown off.

It seems that if the Dev's put together a comprehensive training zone, one that included the concepts of diminishing damage returns, damage transfer from destroyed mech sections, maneuvering, weapons grouping, torso twisting, heat management, jump jetting, defensive action, tagging, chain/group firing, missile locking, etc...That everyone here, EVERYONE, would support it.

It has existed in MW games of the past, and it has a reasonable place here.

A training map or zone has the potential to address far more features than just damage feedback. Quite frankly a new person would be much better served by understanding the concepts of heat management, weapon grouping, and defensive maneuvering than by creating an entire feedback source that could be explained to a new person with little more than the sentence "OK, Joe, you can shoot your weapons beyond their recommended ranges but their damage will decrease significantly".

I understand where the desire for the 'floating numbers' comes from, its from a desire to help new folks get settled intelligently into the game. And it would be a nice feature of a training program. We need to have the training field first, teach them the important things, then get to work on tweaking it. Floating numbers is a tweak.

[Burktross]

"Boss look out! Change!"

"WHAT?! Change in my Mechwarrior?!"

"W-what do we do?"

"WE SHOOT IT DOWN. MAKE SURE THE BETA NEVER GROWS BEYOND THE DEVELOPERS' CHOICES! THEN SHOOT THOSE DOWN AFTER THEY'RE UNBALANCED!"

"But sir... this ones optional and helps new players if implemented correctly...."

"You think we want new players?! Are you stupid?!"

This would be cool if implemented in a non-intrusive way.