15 replies to this topic

[Coole]

In real life, when you walk through water, no mater how much force you exert, you walk slower. Simple physics. Speaking of which, I understand the physics of this game aren't up to par just yet, but I really do hope that the dev's make sure that a mech's speed is lowered proportionally (roughly) to the depth their walking in. Crossing the open waters, just got more tactical. And this was implemented in MW3 and MW4 where water did slow you down.

[color=#959595]For example: I see mechs in the dropship spawn always crossing to the upper city by water, instead of the bridge. If they moved slower, they're more likely to be seen crossing the bridge, and a light might even get a shot or two at the convoy.[/color]

One idea just off the top of my head. Whatever percent your body is submerged, that is the decrease percentage with the limit being a base 80% of you speed. So if you're completely (100%) submerged, you're moving a 20% top speed, which is the full penalty. If you're 50% submerged, you're moving at 60% top speed, which is only half the penalty.

edited: haven't seen any discussion or suggestions about this, or any talks from the devs either.

Edited by Coole, 16 February 2013 - 09:16 PM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

you need a

"doesn't bother me what ever water physics are adapted or never adapted" option.

[Coole]

GalaxyBluestar, on 16 February 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

you need a

"doesn't bother me what ever water physics are adapted or never adapted" option.

Just for you.

[Vlad Ward]

Coole, on 16 February 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

In real life, when you walk through water, no matter how much force you exert, you walk slower. Simple physics.

Wait, what? Is this a relative or absolute statement? What kind of assumptions are we making about the amount of force already being applied to propel the Mech in relation to its (fairly low) velocity?

See, last time I checked, if you exert additional force when entering an area with a higher particle density (from air to water, for example), you can keep moving at the same speed as you were before.

[Steven Dixon]

The devs have commented that they would like to add this and they plan to add this in the future. Also trees will slow you down (and get knocked over) and a few other things. But its not going to be for a while and its possible it may never happen (if it causes problems with the engine).

[Khobai]

I battletech walking through water slows your mech down by like half speed

[Broceratops]

kind of annoying that you can run full speed in water but missiles will explode on contact and the other weapons do less damage going through it.

there's a spot in the water by the bridge in river city where you can fully submerge a jenner. against missiles you are literally invulnerable in this spot.

[Voidsinger]

Looking at it from a light/medium mech point of view.

I don't mind if water slows you down, based on emersion depth, as long as bridges collapse under the weight of an Atlas stomping across them.

[Coole]

Vlad Ward, on 16 February 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

Wait, what? Is this a relative or absolute statement? What kind of assumptions are we making about the amount of force already being applied to propel the Mech in relation to its (fairly low) velocity?

See, last time I checked, if you exert additional force when entering an area with a higher particle density (from air to water, for example), you can keep moving at the same speed as you were before.

Yes, additional force. But at top speed, you can't exert additional force. Therefore your top speed, while moving through water, is lower. And subsequently, whatever force you require for any speed under maximum, isn't enough to maintain the same speed when in water. I'm not sure if you're trolling me either.

Steven Dixon, on 16 February 2013 - 09:19 PM, said:

The devs have commented that they would like to add this and they plan to add this in the future. Also trees will slow you down (and get knocked over) and a few other things. But its not going to be for a while and its possible it may never happen (if it causes problems with the engine).

Thanks, first I'm hearing of this.

Voidsinger, on 16 February 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

Looking at it from a light/medium mech point of view.

I don't mind if water slows you down, based on emersion depth, as long as bridges collapse under the weight of an Atlas stomping across them.

Wouldn't mind seeing some bridges being collapsible, let alone buildings.

[Steven Dixon]

Coole, on 16 February 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

Thanks, first I'm hearing of this.

Wouldn't mind seeing some bridges being collapsible, let alone buildings.

No prob, they mentioned it in a podcast IIRC, collapsible buildings like the MW5 trailer would be so cool, although I really doubt that will ever happen.

[Vlad Ward]

Coole, on 16 February 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

Yes, additional force. But at top speed, you can't exert additional force. Therefore your top speed, while moving through water, is lower. And subsequently, whatever force you require for any speed under maximum, isn't enough to maintain the same speed when in water. I'm not sure if you're trolling me either.

Not trolling. You just made an extremely ambiguous statement, which I believe you meant to be relative rather than absolute. I'm a physicist, you see, and I get a tad miffed when people make wild, absolute statements and claim "it's just simple physics" on the interwebs. I get so mad, bro.

Though, if you really want to analyze it, a Mech's top speed doesn't necessarily correlate to its maximum power generation. The top speed may simply be a maximum safe velocity, which actually makes some sense when you consider the existence of equipment like MASC.

Re Sarna: "Myomer Accelerator Signal Circuitry is a piece of equipment that allows a BattleMech to move twice its walking speed. However, actuators were not built for this kind of stress, and prolonged usage of MASC systems can lock up the actuators in a 'Mech, and cause it to be immobilized."

So, you see, the maximum speed of a Mech may not be a measure of how much power its legs can deliver, but rather how much speed (friction) its joints can handle.

A Mech supplying additional power to its legs when moving through denser-than-air matter is quite plausible.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 16 February 2013 - 09:35 PM.

[Coole]

Vlad Ward, on 16 February 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Not trolling. You just made an extremely ambiguous statement, which I believe you meant to be relative rather than absolute. I'm a physicist, you see, and I get a tad miffed when people make wild, absolute statements and claim "it's just simple physics" on the interwebs. I get so mad, bro.

Though, if you really want to analyze it, a Mech's top speed doesn't necessarily correlate to its maximum power generation. The top speed may simply be a maximum safe velocity, which actually makes some sense when you consider the existence of equipment like MASC.

Re Sarna: "Myomer Accelerator Signal Circuitry is a piece of equipment that allows a BattleMech to move twice its walking speed. However, actuators were not built for this kind of stress, and prolonged usage of MASC systems can lock up the actuators in a 'Mech, and cause it to be immobilized."

So, you see, the maximum speed of a Mech may not be a measure of how much power its legs can deliver, but rather how much speed (friction) its joints can handle.

A Mech supplying additional power to its legs when moving through denser-than-air matter is quite plausible.

Well you're right, but I honestly feel as though your point has little to do about the actual topic. I mean no disrespect, and maybe I'm just completely ignorant in more ways than one, but it seems to me like you're arguing that a mech can maintain the top speed it holds in water with extra power, force, etc. This is not what I'm trying to bring to attention at all. I'm simply saying that the force and power required for a Jenner to move at say 100 kph on land, would actually only move it at a lower speed when its moving through a large body of water (excluding the wind force, air resistance, and the force waves could exert on the mech).

[Tuku]

Coole, on 16 February 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

Well you're right, but I honestly feel as though your point has little to do about the actual topic. I mean no disrespect, and maybe I'm just completely ignorant in more ways than one, but it seems to me like you're arguing that a mech can maintain the top speed it holds in water with extra power, force, etc. This is not what I'm trying to bring to attention at all. I'm simply saying that the force and power required for a Jenner to move at say 100 kph on land, would actually only move it at a lower speed when its moving through a large body of water (excluding the wind force, air resistance, and the force waves could exert on the mech).

In tabletop you could rip your leg right off if you put to powerful an engine on the mech. Its apples to oranges compairing that to this game.

That said ....If water slows you down in the future...Fine with me....If not....I wont mind either.

[Vlad Ward]

Coole, on 16 February 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

Well you're right, but I honestly feel as though your point has little to do about the actual topic. I mean no disrespect, and maybe I'm just completely ignorant in more ways than one, but it seems to me like you're arguing that a mech can maintain the top speed it holds in water with extra power, force, etc. This is not what I'm trying to bring to attention at all. I'm simply saying that the force and power required for a Jenner to move at say 100 kph on land, would actually only move it at a lower speed when its moving through a large body of water (excluding the wind force, air resistance, and the force waves could exert on the mech).

... Right. I'm glad we agree on that. I'm just saying that it's quite plausible for the Mech to exert additional force when it encounters fluid resistance, thus maintaining its original speed.

I don't particularly care what they end up doing with regards to gameplay.

[Coole]

Agreed

Edited by Coole, 16 February 2013 - 10:16 PM.

[MacKoga]

Off topic:

Vlad Ward, on 16 February 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Though, if you really want to analyze it, a Mech's top speed doesn't necessarily correlate to its maximum power generation. The top speed may simply be a maximum safe velocity, which actually makes some sense when you consider the existence of equipment like MASC.

Re Sarna: "Myomer Accelerator Signal Circuitry is a piece of equipment that allows a BattleMech to move twice its walking speed. However, actuators were not built for this kind of stress, and prolonged usage of MASC systems can lock up the actuators in a 'Mech, and cause it to be immobilized."

So, you see, the maximum speed of a Mech may not be a measure of how much power its legs can deliver, but rather how much speed (friction) its joints can handle.

You have a fair point, though the example you give suggests that maximum standard mech speed (whether artificially limited for safety or not), is limited by stress/strain type issues, which in turn would be exacerbated when trying pilot a mech through water (vs. a standard environment).

Your post made me think about it for a while. Battletech gives some clues about its universe's rules. A bigger engine = faster mech, all else held constant. If a mech's max speed were limited by its actuators, mymors, and non-power generating components, then some engine upgrades would NOT increase mech speed, as it's just more wasted excess. So then what would MASC do, if it doesn't increase the raw power, but does get more speed? I'm guessing here, but it seems like MASC effectively increases the efficiency of a given amount of power as translated into actually moving a mech's limb, but does so in a way that is outside of safe tolerances for the component. If so, it does actually increase the power a limb gets, much in the same way that you get different numbers for a car engine's power, and what actually gets translated to what the wheels can deliver to the pavement.

This is all to say that a mech would need to increase its effective power delivery to its limbs to be able to maintain a given speed when going into water from standard air.

Probably.


On topic:

Slower movement in water would be fantastic: it would provide a tactical trade-off for its cooling/defensive advantages, and also give more use for jumpjets. Terrain variety means more strategy and intereting gameplay, as I see it!