54 replies to this topic

[Zyllos]

Something I have begin to notice in MWO is that builds which can pin-point a lot of weaponry onto a single point for as long as possible than builds which can actually deal more damage but generally spreads the damage across a target.

This is part of why the phenomenon on why players generally only aim for the torsos. All their weapons can easily pin-point to a Left/Right Torso, which also destroys the arms in the process. Thus, there is little emphasis on destroying arms because you can just aim all your weaponry at the torso and destroy a mech or maim it by killing both a torso and arm.

I suggest three mechanic changes to fix this issue by placing more emphasis on arm mounted weaponry while removing some ability for all weapons to target a specific point, thus allowing more weapon fire to spread.

Suggestion One - Multiple Weapon Fire Out of a Single Weapon Port

This is an odd mechanic by PGI. I understand the logic behind allowing multiple weapons to be equipped to allow for more customization but why allow multiple weapons to fire out of the same physical weapon port at the same time?

A good example of this is the Atlas Right Torso 2 Ballistic hardpoint / 1 Physical Weapon port location. If someone equips two UAC/5s in this location, and places both of them on the same weapon group without chain fire, then why does both UAC/5s fire at the same time, having overlapping projectiles? This essentially makes it a UAC/10. This also fools your target because they believe a single UAC/5 is firing but actually it is 2 UAC/5s firing at the same time.

The Cicada is another prime example of this. With multiple Energy hardpoints in the same physical Weapon port, they can fire both laser, which overlaps each other looking like a single laser.

So I suggest adding a mechanic where if multiple weapons are fired at the same time out of a single weapon port, just fire the weapons immediately one after the other. This will help spread a bit of the damage just because of the delta time between each firing while moving and also not be used to fool your target.

Suggestion Two - Arm Actuators Given Meaning

This is a brand new mechanic added, which I believe PGI is planning on adding at some point in time. It is fairly straight forward implementation based on how existing mechs already behave and actually sticks to the TT actuator charts fairly well.

Shoulder actuator - Allow arm weaponry to converge on the Arm crosshair.
Upper Arm actuator - Allow vertical deviation of the Arm crosshair from the Torso crosshair.
Lower Arm actuator - Allow horizontal deviation of the Arm crosshair from the Torso crosshair.
Hand actuator - Allow hand related actions to be performed.

Suggestion Three - Torso Mounted Weaponry Do Not Converge

I personally think this is a big balancing factor to the game and part of the reason why nobody aims on arms and everyone can just place the crosshair on a single location and alpha strike, having all damage hit that single location.

I suggest making all torso mounted weaponry only aim straight ahead, aiming in relation to the cockpit view. Basically, a straight like is drawn down the center of the player's perspective. All torso mounted weaponry fires straight ahead from the mech in relation to this line. As a note, arm mounted weaponry will still only fire straight ahead, like torso weaponry. Just both arms point directly at the Arm crosshair.

A good example is the Atlas. The two Center Torso Laser ports will fire straight ahead, not converging on the location on which it is aimed at, but instead will be aimed at the Torso crosshair, landing in relation to the weapons mounted on the mech. So the two Lasers will land below the Torso crosshair, one directly below (because the cockpit is actually out of the left eye, thus the left Center Torso laser will be directly below you) and the other below and slightly to the right. The Ballistic and Missile hardpoints will be aiming to the below/left and below/right of the Torso crosshair.

What this does is removes the ability to pin-point all weaponry mounted on a mech (unless it is all in the arms) to hit a single location. Thus, placing a larger emphasis on arm mounted weaponry (with intact Shoulder actuators). While alpha strikes will still be around, they will not be the single location devastating that they are now, but instead be the wild firing of multiple systems to place as much damage on the target as fast as possible, not worrying about where on the mech it hits.

And with the greater emphasis on allowing convergence on arms only, players might start choosing to destroy an arm first before taking out the Left/Right Torso, especially on mechs which mount a large amount of weaponry on those arms.

TLDR

Remove ability to fire multiple weapons out of the same weapon port at the same time.
Add arm actuator functionality.
Make torso weaponry not converge, but instead fire straight ahead.
All weapons fire straight ahead.

***EDIT: Added the bit about arm mounted weaponry still will only fire straight forward in relation to how they are mounted on the arm. Just the arms point to converge on the Arm crosshair with intact Shoulder actuators.

Edited by Zyllos, 22 February 2013 - 11:11 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

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Remove ability to fire multiple weapons out of the same weapon port at the same time.

This appears to be working for missiles to some extent. IT appears that if the launcher has less tubes than the missile requires, they are fired in multiple groups, and I've also heard that multiple launchers also will now fire sequentially. But they don'T do it when you only need the same or less tubes for your launcher.

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Add arm actuator functionality.

The arm actuators already do almost what you want to do. Only the Hand Actuator remains useless. If we ever get melee, itmight be worth it. If we get collisions back, maybe hand actuator could make the stand-up animation go faster?

Quote

Make torso weaponry not converge, but instead fire straight ahead

Yes, that would make sense to me. Alternatively, set a fixed convergence point.

But we have had long-standing issues with convergence for now (leading with ballistics leads to your convergence sending the weapon off in the wrong direction very often) and the last replies on the "Ask-The-Devs" threads don't make me optimistic that this will change anytime soon.

[Stringburka]

This is a great suggestion. Love it. +1.

It's both a good suggestion and well-explained.

So +1 for good idea and +1 for style.

[Zyllos]

MustrumRidcully, on 17 February 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

This appears to be working for missiles to some extent. IT appears that if the launcher has less tubes than the missile requires, they are fired in multiple groups, and I've also heard that multiple launchers also will now fire sequentially. But they don'T do it when you only need the same or less tubes for your launcher.


The arm actuators already do almost what you want to do. Only the Hand Actuator remains useless. If we ever get melee, itmight be worth it. If we get collisions back, maybe hand actuator could make the stand-up animation go faster?


Yes, that would make sense to me. Alternatively, set a fixed convergence point.

But we have had long-standing issues with convergence for now (leading with ballistics leads to your convergence sending the weapon off in the wrong direction very often) and the last replies on the "Ask-The-Devs" threads don't make me optimistic that this will change anytime soon.

In regards to the actuators, yes, they basically have them implemented but they do not have the critical slots functioning. When your unarmored arm takes damage, you can never lose the actuators.

Yes, I thought about the fixed convergence. But here is the problem I have with that. It will still allow players to converge torso weaponry onto a single point, which I want to totally eliminate for torso weaponry.

[RedMercury]

This is an excellent suggestion.

It makes mastering a chassis much more difficult and rewarding, because now one must master the aiming offsets from the targetting reticule for each weapon port. It also makes weapon fire likely to be more temporally spread out, as pilots adjust their aim to land weapons on the same location. This raises the skill ceiling and makes for competitive play more interesting (the really good aimers would have godlike aim). This also gives different mech chassis individuallity and allows some "bad" chassis to be good by having their torso weapons ports closer together.

If I make my own mech game, this will surely be a feature.

Edited by RedMercury, 17 February 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[Inyc]

MustrumRidcully, on 17 February 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

This appears to be working for missiles to some extent. IT appears that if the launcher has less tubes than the missile requires, they are fired in multiple groups, and I've also heard that multiple launchers also will now fire sequentially. But they don'T do it when you only need the same or less tubes for your launcher.

My Centurion has 10 tubes launcher on his torso with 3 hard points. If I equip 3 LRM 10s, 30 missiles fire out in a single volley from my 10 tubes. I think this is what the OP was talking about as being broken.

[IceSerpent]

Zyllos, on 17 February 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Yes, I thought about the fixed convergence. But here is the problem I have with that. It will still allow players to converge torso weaponry onto a single point, which I want to totally eliminate for torso weaponry.

You do realize that this would put mechs with a lot of torso hardpoints into "unwanted toys" pile and mechs with a lot of arm hardpoints into "go-to mech" pile, right?

[Stringburka]

Inyc, on 17 February 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

My Centurion has 10 tubes launcher on his torso with 3 hard points. If I equip 3 LRM 10s, 30 missiles fire out in a single volley from my 10 tubes. I think this is what the OP was talking about as being broken.

Yes, it is a little buggy as is now.

If you have 10 tubes, you can fire any number of weapons that number less than 10 missiles in a single salvo. So 3xLRM10 works. However, a single LRM15 would be launched in two salvos.

IceSerpent, on 17 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

You do realize that this would put mechs with a lot of torso hardpoints into "unwanted toys" pile and mechs with a lot of arm hardpoints into "go-to mech" pile, right?

Which of course could be balanced out in other ways.

[Inyc]

Stringburka, on 17 February 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Yes, it is a little buggy as is now.

If you have 10 tubes, you can fire any number of weapons that number less than 10 missiles in a single salvo. So 3xLRM10 works. However, a single LRM15 would be launched in two salvos.


Which of course could be balanced out in other ways.

And yet if I could somehow fit 3 LRM20s in there, they would all fire out in only two salvos. 60 missiles from 10 tubes in 2 salvos.

[Adridos]

IceSerpent, on 17 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

You do realize that this would put mechs with a lot of torso hardpoints into "unwanted toys" pile and mechs with a lot of arm hardpoints into "go-to mech" pile, right?

Actually, it would give some reason to play a Jagermech instead of a K2.

[Zyllos]

IceSerpent, on 17 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

You do realize that this would put mechs with a lot of torso hardpoints into "unwanted toys" pile and mechs with a lot of arm hardpoints into "go-to mech" pile, right?

Yes, but you know how vulnerable arms are in this game? There should be a greater emphasis on wanting to destroy mech arms if you want to reduce the power of certain mechs instead of just always going for the torso.

[EmperorMyrf]

I agree with all of this, except for the lack of convergence on the torso weapons.

I feel there should be a minimum convergence range, somewhere out in the 400-500m area, where shots will only converge at and beyond that point. This way, long range sniping is not hindered by the system, but face-hugging pinpoint convergence is removed.

[MustrumRidcully]

IceSerpent, on 17 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

You do realize that this would put mechs with a lot of torso hardpoints into "unwanted toys" pile and mechs with a lot of arm hardpoints into "go-to mech" pile, right?

I believe this isn't a big deal. Or rather, there is something that will mitigate the effect - if you go for putting all your guns in your arms, then they become prime targets. And the only thing with worse armour than the arms is the head. It suddenly makes not going for CT kills a lot more attractive.

[Corvus Antaka]

Great post Zylos.

[Karl Streiger]

Can remember that i wanted to shoot a other Mech with the AC 20 of my long gone CN9-AH into the back - while passing him. It didn't worked - because of the missing under arm activator.

All other suggestions are worth to be implemented.

[Taizan]

IAWTOP. Good stuff, I'd really like to see some actual benefits of arm/shoulder/hand actuators. Maybe this is something for the "quirks" improvements that will be gradually added.

Yes to Suggestion 1,2 - not sure about suggestion 3 though, maybe set torso convergence to the farthest distance one of your torso mounted weapons can attain.

[Stringburka]

I think having torso convergence should be possible, but at a set range - say 400 meters, exactly. Before that they don't converge and after that they go over each other, so to speak. It might even be adjustable.

The important thing on convergence is that torso weapons shouldn't move around in the torso. They might be adjusted beforehand to shoot at an angle to cause convergence, but not in the heat of battle.

[Gaan Cathal]

Zyllos, on 17 February 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

I suggest making all torso mounted weaponry only aim straight ahead, aiming in relation to the cockpit view. Basically, a straight like is drawn down the center of the player's perspective. All torso mounted weaponry fires straight ahead from the mech in relation to this line.

I agree with more or less the entire OP barring this bit. Firstly, I'd rather slower convergence than none, but the main point is that the torso weapons fire out of the port. I don't want to get shot by an Atlas' AC/20 when he's hiding it behined a building. This is also the kind of thing that will send competent newbies right back out of the door. Lines of fire need to come from the weapon port, and probably have a fixed convergence point with a slow (and possibly limited bracket of) convergence. Of course we also need converge-to-target-distance implemented, otherwise we run the risk of making torso snipers even better than arm-sniperssince they won't auto-converge on a lampost.

Zyllos, on 17 February 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Yes, but you know how vulnerable arms are in this game? There should be a greater emphasis on wanting to destroy mech arms if you want to reduce the power of certain mechs instead of just always going for the torso.

Not very? The Dragon, to take an example, has a standard of 40 armour on the arm, 45 on the front ST, 64 on the front CT. That's one more MLAS shot to take out a ST and five more to take out the CT and kill. A C1 catty can carry an equivalent of 6 MLAS assuming it's run out of missiles/been eared, so it would take one more volley to core than to take the arm off. As a rule, the more tonnage on the mech, the easier it is to arm, armour-wise. Hitboxes have a huge effect on this though, Catties get eared a lot because they stick right up and are almost the size of the torso, making them easy to strip at range. Despite the similar profile, the Stalker is rarely de-winged because it has those huge vulnerable side torsos (that handily de-wing it for free).

[sC4r]

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Suggestion One - Multiple Weapon Fire Out of a Single Weapon Port

this is something i would agree on though it would need some visual differences on mech but there are some mechs/variants where it could be done like
lets say atlas missile launchers -> srm launcher pod has always 6 tubes yet if you mount multiple missile launchers into the torso it will fire all missiles at once instead of firing 3 salvos of 6 missiles or catapult a1/c1 -> have 15 tubes if you mount 3 srm6 it will fire them all same aplies for lrms if you mount 2x lrm15 into one ear it will fire all 30 at once

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Suggestion Two - Arm Actuators Given Meaning

this is already ingame man

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Suggestion Three - Torso Mounted Weaponry Do Not Converge

interesting... cant say i like it but cant say its not reasonable
i think this one shouldnt be added since its way too player unfriendly(especially new ones)

[Zyllos]

Well, the main point of this whole thread, honestly, was Suggestion Three.


I think there is too much "alpha strike as many hard hitting weapons as possible" going on because all weapons converge on a single point. But it seems this is what the community wants...

Edited by Zyllos, 18 February 2013 - 06:26 AM.