22 replies to this topic

[Henry Pride]

Playing this game these days is pretty anoying. With the upcomming Patch for the PPC to disable ECM and the last Patch reduction of Heat for the PPC i see lots of people boating PPC, ERPPC and of course the all loved Splatcat.

I know that there will always be someone using certain kinds of tricks to get the cheesiest build u can imagine but how about a penalty system for boating?
So, where starts the boating and ends the "usual" build. A Stalker with nothing else then 4 LRM 15 is a boat.. a Catapult A1 with 6 SRM6 is a boat (and cheesy as hell) and a Stalker with 6 PPC is a boat. A Awesome 8Q with 3 PPC is a stock build and ok, as it exists in the canon.

So how should the penalty look like for boating such cheese builds? I would either suggest to lower or negotiate the amount of CBills won while taking more than 3 weapons of 1 group with u or limit the number of weapons of one kindur able to build into a Battlemech, for example Max 2 SRM into an A1 or something alike...

Suggestions, Opinion?

[Mazzyplz]

i was using ppc from the start, the awesome 8q is a canon ppc boat from lore, even in the inner sphere they would boat, could you not ruin my canon mech with your whim???? kkthxbai

Edited by Mazzyplz, 17 February 2013 - 05:39 PM.

[Capt Cole 117]

When armor on a section of your mech is completely destroyed, 1 second of invincibility for the internal structure and items therein should force boaters to chainfire, and give you an opportunity to torso twist to spread the damage and return fire. Best of all people who only use 2-3 SRM6s, PPCs, etc won’t notice the difference.
A lack of damage transferring from armor to internals means you can never be killed or lose weapons, items, etc in less then a second, even if that 6PPC stalker shoots your raven in the head.


Also add a heat penalty that exceptionally increases a weapons heat when a certain number of the same weapon is on a mech.

If 3 or more SRM6 is boating: first weapon over the boat limit increases all SRM heat by 15%, second weapon over the boat limit is +45% SRM heat, 3^rd is 135% and so on.

Boat limit (or BL) is different for each weapon, exceeding the boat limit gives the penalty.

SRM6 BL 2

PPC BL 3

medium laser BL 8

small laser BL 15

AC 20 BL 1 (to get rid of those dual AC20 K2s, the king crab has the tonnage to carry heatsinks for it's ACs)

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Henry Pride, on 17 February 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

So, where starts the boating and ends the "usual" build.

It probably begins with you giving out arbitrary guidelines.

Quote

A Stalker with nothing else then 4 LRM 15 is a boat

But the Longbow or Crossbow isn't a boat?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Longbow
http://www.sarna.net..._%28OmniMech%29

Quote

a Catapult A1 with 6 SRM6 is a boat (and cheesy as hell)

But the Arctic Wolf with 6 SRM6s and 2 SRM4s is not a boat?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Arctic_Wolf

Quote

and a Stalker with 6 PPC is a boat. A Awesome 8Q with 3 PPC is a stock build and ok, as it exists in the canon.

Wait...so if it exists in canon, such as the Warhawk with 4 ER PPCs, which is functionally identical to the 6 PPC Stalker, thats okay?

Quote

So how should the penalty look like for boating such cheese builds?

"Boating" is a common and successful design philosophy, and can be found right there in TT rules too.

[Asmudius Heng]

Boating doesnt need to be addressed - the need to take mixed loaouts and ranges and be effective needs to be addressed.

Boats are always going to be around, but the downsides to boating some items are too negligable to matter a lot of the time compared to a mixed loadout that can work in most situations.

I am sure HRR Insanity will be in here soon saying it is the problem of pointpoint accuracy too ... which is a culprit for sure as it makes moating accuracy very desirable and efficient.

Nothing wrong with the concept of boats - it is that they are generally a better option than not that might be a little bit worrying.

Extreme builds need to have extreme drawbacks - as long as this basic rule of balance is followed boats have thier place and are entitled to it.

[Capt Cole 117]

Asmudius Heng, on 17 February 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

Extreme builds need to have extreme drawbacks - as long as this basic rule of balance is followed boats have thier place and are entitled to it.

But that would lead to rock paper scissors style of play where success or failure depends on guessing what mech the enemy has and using a mech that counters it, pilot skill be dammed.

[HRR Insanity]

Asmudius Heng, on 17 February 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

Boating doesnt need to be addressed - the need to take mixed loaouts and ranges and be effective needs to be addressed.

Boats are always going to be around, but the downsides to boating some items are too negligable to matter a lot of the time compared to a mixed loadout that can work in most situations.

I am sure HRR Insanity will be in here soon saying it is the problem of pointpoint accuracy too ... which is a culprit for sure as it makes boating accuracy very desirable and efficient.

/shrugs/ I've said my piece. If the developers thought it was the way they wanted to take the game (ie: away from unbalanced weapons/boated builds) then they would have implemented my suggestion back in Closed Beta (June/July 2012). Since they haven't...

I just get to say 'I told you so' every time a new 'Mech/weapon comes out that abuses the use of multiple weapons hitting the same spot.

For those of you who haven't seen the latest long thread about this, here ya go.

PS: For those of you who don't know... these are probably the best weapon configurations: 2xGR, 2xAC20, 4-6xPPC, 4-6xLL, 8-9xML, 9xSL, 2-3xPPC+GR, 3-6xSRM6, and 6xSSRM2 (rare now due to ECM). Notice any ... similarities? Yes, they're all boats that rely on pinpoint convergence.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 17 February 2013 - 07:59 PM.

[Ivory Spider]

My raven 2X has 4 energy hardpoints and a missile hardpoint. By your "boating" rules by taking more than 3 of the same weapon I should be penalized. Well here's my issue, i'm a light mech and a large laser is pretty heavy and I don't wanna deal with it's heat. Small lasers are tiny and more or less pointless annoyances. so my best option is to take 4 medium lasers. But now because i've taken 4 medium lasers i'm penalized. I'm sorry I don't agree with your idea on boating. We have the freedom to build the mech we want within the limits of the game and it works. anyways people boating weapons can hurt them too cause 6 ppc's ain't so good up close and 6 SRM6 are non-effective at range. Boating is not the game-breaking issue you seem to think it is.
I'm sorry if this post seems harsh or rude/mean. After re-rading it I noticed i've come off a bit strong. Suffice to say I do not agree with your assessment of boating.

[kevin roshak]

They were toying with the idea of having identical weapons on the same location give some sort of penalty, heat if i remember correctly.

[Asmudius Heng]

Capt Cole 117, on 17 February 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

But that would lead to rock paper scissors style of play where success or failure depends on guessing what mech the enemy has and using a mech that counters it, pilot skill be dammed.

That not quite what I was getting at, but certainly I can se your point. LRM boaters are an example of something that was fairly well balanced for instance. Very powerful (before ECM, but avoidable with skill and using cover), and they would get destroyed at close range because of the minimum range. Big effect, serious limitation.

SRMs on the splatcat come with only one real drawback which is it's range, but I do not find it that difficult to get into range to use them and use your team as a shielf til the engagement. The maps, ECM, and gametypes funnel people into close range so the main disadvantage of this build is not as big a disadvantage as all that. though new maps and gametypes might make it less desirable.

The AC20 K2 has a range limiter as well, and it is a lead time weapon, but its range and the range of engagements is actually not too bad.

Short range boaters i face have a fairly favourable time.

Long range boaters are a little more probelmatic because large energy weapons are HOT and when pressed at close range can adamge a fair bit, but will often shut down of be close to it. This is a disadvantage, but it is kind of irritating to see a stalker just alpha and shut down then start up and alpha gain. They are usualyl dead meat but its silly (i need to fnid the head on em better )

Long range ballistics such as the gauss I feel are some of the best to boat becasue you can brawl and snipe with them. They have little drawback except their limited health - but I dont know how effective that really is. By the time you have lost your armour it might only last another shot anyway if the Gauss was at 10 health, if that at all. As a discouragement, not a big deal for me.

So these are the thing you have to play with as disincentives to boating:

- Range
- Heat
- Ammo
- Reload time

The problem is, if you make one of these worse to prevent boating you make the singular use of such a weapon worse as well.

If you really wanted to make boating harder, the disincentive needs to be higher than if you decided on a mixed loadout, but the usage of a boat would still be totally viable, but you would need to have better skill or teamwork to make it work because boating isnt a problem, but if it ebcomes easy mode for wins it possibly is.

I would support a slight nerf to one of those things for people boating depending on the weapon type boated but only if the stats weeshowign this wa an extreme issue or was killing diversity. BNallistics and missiles might be hit with a longer relaod time because heat might not be a real issue, while high heat weapons might ened more heat etc.

This is a design decision that would be pretty harsh to do, but with pinpoint convergeance - boating might become a major issue in the future.

sorry kinda rambled ...

[MustrumRidcully]

I am against special penalties for boating.
I might change the "environment" in which boating occurs.

1) Any weapons that become OP when boated are usually OP by themselves, and boating just magnifies the weapon's advantage. So look at the weapons that are boated (why are Medium Lasers or SRMs boated but not MGs or Flamers?)

2) Convergence.
It is and will forever be a problem in MW:O (and past Mechwarrior titles) and I am not ver yoptimistic that anything will change here. But if there was something to change:
- Torso weapons should have either no convergence at all, or a fixed convergence point (say, something set in the mech lab).
- Arm weapons may keep the current convergence rules.
That forces people that want to boat to put their weapons in the arms, which have weak armour and so obvious targets.
If you use your torso instead, you cannot guarantee pin-point accuracy anymore. And since arm and torso weapons will now converge at different points usually, you want to fire them seperately most of the time. Which means not boating and putting something different in the torsos than becomes a more reasonable proposition and has less drawbacks. (if any at all.)

3) Lower Heat Capacity
This doesn't help for Gauss Rifle, ACs or SRMs, but it will help those one-hit-alpha-strike wonder boats that some people are worried about. 6 PPCs produce 48 heat. The only reason why people even dare alphaing with this is because the heat capacity is 30 + heat sinks. With Engine DHS, every mech has a capacity of at least 50. If the capacity was lower, even a ten times increased heat dissipation would not allow safe alpha strikes with such weapon configs.

[FromHell2k]

Killing the Hunchback HBK-4P, it's boating MLas, so op, nerf nerf QQ. C'mon guys, it's getting ridiculous..
...
Nerf the Spider-5K for boating 4MG's
Nerf the HBK-4SP for boating 2 SRMs
Nerf the Atlas for boating multiple Missle/Energy/Ballistics
Nerf the Stalker (stock) for boating
Nerf the Jenner for boating 6SLas
Nerf the Commando for boating SSRM
Nerf the CN-9A for boating SRM and Mlas
Nerf myself for playing boats (even with 3 weapons of the same type! Heresy!)

...

Edited by FromHell2k, 18 February 2013 - 02:09 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

A boat uses just one type of weapon.
So yes a Atlas with just 4 PPC is a boat.
A Atlas with 4 Large Laser, a MG and a SRM 2 is still a boat
A Atlas with 4 Med Las, 2 AC 5 and 2xLRM 10 isn't a boat

The Jenner with its 4 MLAS - isn't a boat - because you can't give him other weapons.

The Stalker stock isn't a boat because it uses MLAS, SLAS, SRM and LRM so no boat

[Asmudius Heng]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 February 2013 - 01:13 AM, said:

1) Any weapons that become OP when boated are usually OP by themselves, and boating just magnifies the weapon's advantage. So look at the weapons that are boated (why are Medium Lasers or SRMs boated but not MGs or Flamers?)

I am not sure if i agree with you there.

I do not think a couple of medlas, or a single SRM pack is that dangerous - the most OP weapons ae ones that can be boated en mass and do not have a drawback that limits this.

For medlas it is double heat sinks that allow it to function so well (and pinpoint accuracy of course), SRMs thrive on many builds with lors of missile hardpoints and they are fairly small and easy to fit just like medlas.

PPCs seem to be boated a little more because the heat is not overly punishing as it was before - but its still high so i am not sure how effective they really are.

The other things people seem to have issue with boating wise is multiple gauss, and multiple AC20s. They are big weapons that are actually difficult to boat, but have no heat problems to deal with and ammo does not seem to be a big problem for them either.

An AC20 on its own is not game breaking - pinpoint accuracy and teh fact you have a single mechanic and range to deal with makes them optimal.

So I usually agree with you but i dont think this is the case.

Wepaons need to be effective on thier own, and effective as a group, but without mixed ranges and mechanics, a mech should have a serious enough downside that someone should be able to exploit it.

If a boat cannot ranu into a amjor issue with someone who know;s his weakness it doesnt have a drawback to negate its large advantages.

Boating penalties are an option - but i dont think a GOOD option if i were to clarify myself. Sicne PGI will not change pinpoint accuracy other measures might need to come into play ...

[Gaan Cathal]

Asmudius Heng, on 18 February 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

Boating penalties are an option - but i dont think a GOOD option if i were to clarify myself. Sicne PGI will not change pinpoint accuracy other measures might need to come into play ...

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's my understanding that at some point (near end of Closed Beta?) PGI did, infact, increase the point-of-impact radius for most weapons, certainly I've seen the odd (largely senseless) complaint about how it 'destroyed sniping'.

As for the OP, you would invalidate a couple dozen canon mechs with this, which puts your 'not canon' argument out of the window. Boating isn't bad, get over it. It's swings and roundabouts - if you take a multi-range mech, then you need to engage boats at an appropriate range (i.e. their worst). That's the point. If you were just as good at short range in a multi-range mech as a short-ranged boat then multi-ranging would be overpowered. It's a fair trade off.

Case in point, prior to the introduction of ECM, it would've been valid to swap the SRM battery in an Atlas torso for an LRM, meaning you trade brawling firepower for the ability to soften up the enemy at range. The longer the pre-brawl time, the more the balance swings in advantage of the LRM-equipped Atlas, presuming all other factors equal.

The reason you see a substantial number of boats is that they are easier to pilot, for the low-mid end of the game, and when you're coordinating with teamates, their specialisation is less of a drawback.

[Karl Streiger]

Gaan Cathal, on 18 February 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

As for the OP, you would invalidate a couple dozen canon mechs with this, which puts your 'not canon' argument out of the window. Boating isn't bad, get over it. It's swings and roundabouts - if you take a multi-range mech, then you need to engage boats at an appropriate range (i.e. their worst). That's the point. If you were just as good at short range in a multi-range mech as a short-ranged boat then multi-ranging would be overpowered. It's a fair trade off.

First a well rounded multi range mech - should be able to beat a short range mech all the time - because he could attack him earlyer - and finish him off at short range.
If you are missing that short range punch - than the fact is that you are using a well rounded long range support mech.

So i have to engage the enemy targets at ranges of 500m and above... well lets have a look at the maps...
Cover works in both direction... that is a really simple fact and the majority of MWO players are still not able to see that fact. (use open terrain, to engage A1... youse close terrain for engaging PPC Stalker etc.)

Because cover works in both direction - my well rounded multi range mech is fodder for mechs boating long range weapons. So i need cover... oh dear - now i'm fodder for short range mechs...that leaves me exactly two options. I start boating long range weapons or I start boating short range weapons. So please tell me is there a option? Is there balancing?

[MustrumRidcully]

Asmudius Heng, on 18 February 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

I am not sure if i agree with you there.

I do not think a couple of medlas, or a single SRM pack is that dangerous - the most OP weapons ae ones that can be boated en mass and do not have a drawback that limits this.

No, they are not that dangerous alone. But for their weight, they are pretty good. But this difference is neglible if you only have 1 Medium Laser or SRM6 and a bunch of other weapons. But if you got multiple, the difference is also multiplied.

Let's pretend every other weapon was balanced to be worth 10 points in whatever we value it. But the SRM is worth 15 points.

If you have an SRM and 5 other weapns, your mech's value is 65. Not much different from 60 ,probably a neglible advantage with all the other random factors in a typical match.
But if you got 6 SRMs, your mech's value is 90. That is quite different, and likely something that will stick out despite all the random effects in the game.

[Gaan Cathal]

Karl Streiger, on 18 February 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

First a well rounded multi range mech - should be able to beat a short range mech all the time - because he could attack him earlyer - and finish him off at short range.
If you are missing that short range punch - than the fact is that you are using a well rounded long range support mech.

The bolded would be an indicator that they are overpowered, but the rest of it I agree with, that's exactly how a multirange fit should deal with close ranged opposition.

Karl Streiger, on 18 February 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

So i have to engage the enemy targets at ranges of 500m and above... well lets have a look at the maps...
Cover works in both direction... that is a really simple fact and the majority of MWO players are still not able to see that fact. (use open terrain, to engage A1... youse close terrain for engaging PPC Stalker etc.)

Because cover works in both direction - my well rounded multi range mech is fodder for mechs boating long range weapons. So i need cover... oh dear - now i'm fodder for short range mechs...that leaves me exactly two options. I start boating long range weapons or I start boating short range weapons. So please tell me is there a option? Is there balancing?

You are somewhat using a one-vs-two example here though, in a 1v1 situation you need to maneuver to place the opposing mech at a disadvantage, in, say, two-vs-two however, the whole dynamic changes. If you pair two multi-range mechs, then you try to fight the opponents in isolation, since they have to separate to operate you can double-team the A1 in cover, despite it being his theoretical advantage ground, and then close on the PPC/LRM boat. If your partner is any kind of boat, you basically do the same, but your priority is the mirror of your buddy and you act in a supplementary and covering role.

The fact is, the more boats you have, the more you have to split your team. Eight splatcats vs eight multirange mechs will go to cover and eat them unless forced into the open. Four splatcats and four PPC boats need to split up to operate, and the eight multirangers should eat the splatcats once they have them isolated from their covering fire.

I.e. the advantage of multiranging is not needing to split up, in this instance.

Out of interest, what specifically do you class as a boat? The Splatcat is obviously a boat, the 'Butterbee' type C4 also might qualify since it basically operates at 270m. More to the point, actually, what do you class as a 'well rounded mech'? A primarily short-ranged fit with some auxiliary long ranged firepower and vica/versa? Or is that a boat-with-a-bit? Are we talking strictly about those phasing-range fits from TT where firepower increases as you approach? (Which I assume works in TT, somehow, I'm not up on the mechanics really, but making that really work in any kind of realtime environment would be...interesting.)

[Karl Streiger]

Gaan Cathal, on 18 February 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

More to the point, actually, what do you class as a 'well rounded mech'? A primarily short-ranged fit with some auxiliary long ranged firepower and vica/versa? Or is that a boat-with-a-bit? Are we talking strictly about those phasing-range fits from TT where firepower increases as you approach? (Which I assume works in TT, somehow, I'm not up on the mechanics really, but making that really work in any kind of realtime environment would be...interesting.)

Well rounded - in my eyes a balanced Mech - any range - any time... but I think you got me with your last sentence... I wasn't realizing that most of my ideas or even my POV is clouded by TT. I have spent hours to find a fitting that can fight any foe at any range... two of those builds i have converted with great success into MWO... both are Multi Range Atlas... per se the only mech that thanks to his different hardpoints settings work best when you use Missiles, Ballistic and Energy Slots - and when you hardly can tell wich weapon is your primary.

But in TT - long range mechs are always supperior to short range mechs...simple because they can open fire earlier. With reduced range you get better and better range bracket... for example the AC 20 Cat...with a regular pilot would have problems to engage targets that move 80 or more at ranges of 210m when charging.
On the other hand..when another Gauss Cat engage the same target at the same range will hit it with much better probability.

To reflect this setting of different range brackets?
Alternate damage per range band would be a beginning (they do this allready beyond the effective range - so why not to improve that... next i would stretch all ranges - and modify the convergence settings.

oh of course i would nerf the RoF of all energy weapons and last not least - reintroduction of Rearm Costs.
Luckily for the majority of MWO - players it is not up to me

[Woska]

There is no reason to have a penalty for boating. None.

A boat mech is a specialist. And as a result it is strong in one way, but weak in all others. If I have only LRMs on my mech, then I am at huge risk from close range encounters. If I have only medium lasers, or only SRMs, then I'm at risk of getting shredded from range.

All mech builds are a trade off. You sacrifice some capability to gain it somewhere else. So the penalty of boating is already built in.