169 replies to this topic

[verybad]

Gotta agree the LBX needs some lovin'.

Also, for multi ammo weapons, they should let us sellect the weapon (use the same system as the grouping system, then let us press alt or something and it changes the type of ammo loaded. Once that type is used up, it automatically changes to the next type of ammo.

This would let us play around with Inferno SRMs also...

Back to LBX, I don't think the shotgun type should get longer range, but it should do nasty things to crit locations. NASTY.

To prevent it from making standard AC-10s (and other ACs once LBX-2,5,20s are available) Make their stndard round ammo (as opposed to shotgun round) loading take about 25% longer.

I really don't think different ammo types are beyond PGI's ability to program however.

[Vassago Rain]

Splinters, on 18 February 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

I would agree that the LB-10X needs the TT rule that they can swap for either cluster or regular AC10 ammo for the weapon to be truly useful. The cluster shot's don't need a damage buff if they can tear open a mech with regular ac10 ammo and then fill in the holes with the shotgun for the crits.

-S

Crits don't work like in your imagination.

Items on average have 10 lifepoints each.
IF you score damage on an item, and IF you roll a 'crit,' and IF you're lucky, you deal 2x or 3x normal damage. That means it takes FOUR pellets to destroy a heatsink, best case scenario.

When and where are you going to land 4 pellets on the same part of the mech, have all of them hit the same item, and get every singke pellet to do a 3x damage result?

The gun's useless.
It has no purpose. I laugh when I see people running LBX. You can safely ignore them and kill their buddies.

[DocBach]

Velba, on 18 February 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

People in this thread need to learn how to use a weapon that crits ten times in one shot properly.




^Like this guy

That's only if the location is completely stripped of armor, and all of the LB-X pellets hit the same location. My favorite way to destroy critical slots and equipment is to cleave the entire location off with a gauss or AC/20 round.

The most useful feature of the LB10-X (that we don't have in the game yet) is that it can use standard slug shots as well, and serves as an AC/10 that weighs one ton less.

Edited by DocBach, 18 February 2013 - 11:10 AM.

[De La Fresniere]

Velba, on 18 February 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

People in this thread need to learn how to use a weapon that crits ten times in one shot properly.

Each pellet tries for a crit, meaning if you get a lot of pellets in an exposed section you're practically guaranteed a crit (likely multiple crits). Yes.

But then, math.

While an AC/10 has a 42% chance of breaking an item on any hit to an exposed section, the LB10-X's guaranteed crits will be spread among all items in that section. Say you get all 10 pellets to hit an unarmored section (lol, good luck with that), you'll normally get 6 points of crit damage (you're highly unlikely to get 10, and even less likely to get all 10 of those points of damage to a single item) meaning, while you're guaranteed crits, you're also guaranteed to *not* destroy anything. Except maybe a Gauss... assuming it hasn't been properly padded with its own non-explosive ammo.

There is no good way to use that weapon because... well, there's no good way to use that weapon.

EDIT: because "exposide" is not a word. I think. I don't speak English.

Edited by De La Fresniere, 18 February 2013 - 11:28 AM.

[Black Ivan]

The LBX-10 is useless. Not optionfor single shot and it is easily outperfomed by many other weapons.

PGI did no good job on it or many other weapon balances.

[Sifright]

Velba, on 18 February 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

People in this thread need to learn how to use a weapon that crits ten times in one shot properly.




^Like this guy

....

>Crits 10 times....

>except it doesn't.

>Does 1 damage a crit.

>doesn't break anything

>worse than using an SRM6

>I laughed at you.

Edited by Sifright, 18 February 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[AnnoyingCat]

Vassago Rain, on 18 February 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

That's great.
Now it stands for 10 pellets, or caliber 10, and it doesn't deal 10x1 damage, as that's useless.

but it's an AC

SpiralRazor, on 18 February 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

So SRM-6 stands for Six damage? Okay. And yeah, my point is that we dont have Laser 270 or LRM 1 anymore, but yes....we did.

but we are talking about an AC here

[Roland]

The only folks here who are saying the LBX10 is anything other than terrible, are folks who don't really understand how the game's mechanics work.

The folks who are saying, "Let me switch the ammo to slugs" are basically just saying, "Make the AC10 lighter".

In order for the LBX10 to be useful, it needs to still do something unique (like have a shotgun effect), but it needs to do so in a manner that isn't useless. Upping the damage per pellet to something like 2 would do that, although it might be too strong then.

In order for its crit damage to actually matter, I think it needs to actually do what happens in the TT game. That is, any critical hit should destroy the component hit. There's no need for "hitpoints" on components. With that, then weapons like machine guns and LBX suddenly have some utility against stripped sections, since they'll just obliterate everything inside the mech, almost instantly.

Although even in that case, they may still not be useful enough compared to other weapons which can just destroy that section, while also being useful for destroying its armor.

[Sifright]

AnnoyingCat, on 18 February 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

but it's an AC


but we are talking about an AC here

Yes and AC weapons are universally terrible compared to other weapons for weight vs damage.

Only the AC2, AC20 and UAC5 are effective weapons for their tonnage compared to other weapon systems.

personaly I think the more pgi distances themselves from TT damage values with the AC weapons the better.

Edited by Sifright, 18 February 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

I'd like to present an idea that I've been mulling over for some time now.

We know from Ask the Devs 10 that there are plans for the LB-X family to be able to fire "slug rounds" (really more similar to standard/HEAP shells than actual shotgun slugs) as well as the shotshell-like "cluster rounds" seen currently.

In BattleTech, the number assigned to a particular LB-X denoted both the damage per slug round as well as the number of sub-munitions (at one unit of damage each) within each cluster round.

With this in mind (and knowing that, before long, the Clan scourge will be upon us, with the full range of LB-X ACs available to them), I submit the following proposal for review, commentary, and consideration:

• For each LB "n"-X AC, slug rounds would deliver "n" damage per round out to the appropriate effective range, with the appropriate drop-off to the appropriate maximum range.
  
• For each LB "n"-X AC, the cool-down and number of rounds per ton (for both munition types) would be identical to that of the same-class standard AC/"n".
  
• For each LB "n"-X AC, the number of sub-munitions in each cluster round would be 10, with each sub-munition dealing "n"/10 damage against external armor, "n"/5 damage against internal structure ("internal armor"), and "n"/2 damage against internal components (weapons and equipment). As the sub-munitions could be explosive in nature (more like grenades or missile warheads than simple pellets), their individual damage does not decrease with range.
  
• For each LB "n"-X AC, the spread of the sub-munitions would be set such that a stationary Hunchback-sized target positioned at the weapon's effective range would be hit with approximately 60% of a shell's sub-munitions, with the number that are likely to strike the target decreasing as range increases.

Example 1:
An IS LB 10-X would have an effective range of 540 meters, an ammunition capacity of 15 rounds per ton (for both munition types), and a cool-down of 2.5 seconds.
It would be able to fire a slug round that applies 10 units of damage against a target up to a range of 540 meters, falling off linearly to 0 damage at 1620 meters.
It would also be able to fire a cluster round where each of the 10 sub-munitions applies 1 unit of damage against the target's armor (or 2 units of damage against the target's internal structure or 5 units of damage against the target's exposed weapons and equipment), with approximately 6 of those sub-munitions being expected to strike a stationary, Hunchback-sized target at 540 meters.

Example 2:
A Clan LB 2-X (the shorter-ranged IS version is not available until 3058) would have an effective range of 900 meters, an ammunition capacity of 75 rounds per ton (for both munition types), and a cool-down of 0.5 seconds (or whatever it is for the AC/2 nowadays).
It would be able to fire a slug round that applies 2 units of damage against a target up to a range of 900 meters, falling off linearly to 0 damage at 2700 meters.
It would also be able to fire a cluster round where each of the 10 sub-munitions applies 0.2 units of damage against the target's armor (or 0.4 units of damage against the target's internal structure or 1 unit of damage against the target's exposed weapons and equipment), with approximately 6 of those sub-munitions being expected to strike a stationary, Hunchback-sized target at 900 meters.

Example 3:
A LB 20-X (both tech bases; the IS version is not available until 3058) would have an effective range of 360 meters, an ammunition capacity of 7 rounds per ton (for both munition types), and a cool-down of 4.0 seconds.
It would be able to fire a slug round that applies 20 units of damage against a target up to a range of 360 meters, falling off linearly to 0 damage at 1080 meters.
It would also be able to fire a cluster round where each of the 10 sub-munitions applies 2 units of damage against the target's armor (or 4 units of damage against the target's internal structure or 10 units of damage against the target's exposed weapons and equipment), with approximately 6 of those sub-munitions being expected to strike a stationary, Hunchback-sized target at 360 meters.

Your thoughts?

[AnnoyingCat]

Sifright, on 18 February 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

Yes and AC weapons are universally terrible compared to other weapons for weight vs damage.

Only the AC2 and UAC5 are effective weapons for their tonnage compared to other weapon systems.

personaly I think the more pgi distances themselves from TT damage values with the AC weapons the better.

But ACs are awesome!

[Statixstorm]

2.0 dmg per pellet would be the LBX-20, so no, that'll come eventually.

However, while I do agree that it is expensive (800,000 Cbills wtf) and pretty terrible, the only thing that I could see improving it would be to tighten the spread considerably, think shotgun firing buckshot with full choke instead of no choke bird shot.

Even then, the lacklustre performance combined with expensive cost means I doubt I will ever use it, I would rather use something with some punch.

[Vassago Rain]

Roland, on 18 February 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

The only folks here who are saying the LBX10 is anything other than terrible, are folks who don't really understand how the game's mechanics work.

The folks who are saying, "Let me switch the ammo to slugs" are basically just saying, "Make the AC10 lighter".

In order for the LBX10 to be useful, it needs to still do something unique (like have a shotgun effect), but it needs to do so in a manner that isn't useless. Upping the damage per pellet to something like 2 would do that, although it might be too strong then.

In order for its crit damage to actually matter, I think it needs to actually do what happens in the TT game. That is, any critical hit should destroy the component hit. There's no need for "hitpoints" on components. With that, then weapons like machine guns and LBX suddenly have some utility against stripped sections, since they'll just obliterate everything inside the mech, almost instantly.

Although even in that case, they may still not be useful enough compared to other weapons which can just destroy that section, while also being useful for destroying its armor.

This is the problem. Why 'crit-seek' when a barrage of SRMs are guaranteed to take the section off completely?

[Sifright]

AnnoyingCat, on 18 February 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

But ACs are awesome!

not really, AC5 and AC10 are terribly heavy weapons for the damage they put out.

Vassago Rain, on 18 February 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

This is the problem. Why 'crit-seek' when a barrage of SRMs are guaranteed to take the section off completely?

it's the reason why any one stating a weapon is a 'crit-seeker' for it's role is really just saying "This weapon is utterly useless and you should never field it."

[Vassago Rain]

AnnoyingCat, on 18 February 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

But ACs are awesome!

In MWO.
Battletech, they needed to be patched first with LBX variants, ultra variants, then clan variants of LBX variants and ultras, THEN special ammo for the old ones, and finally by rotaries and even more special ammo.

[Scorcher One]

LBX-10 is absolutly perfect as it is now.

[Sifright]

Vassago Rain, on 18 February 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

In MWO.
Battletech, they needed to be patched first with LBX variants, ultra variants, then clan variants of LBX variants and ultras, THEN special ammo for the old ones, and finally by rotaries and even more special ammo.

well yea it's not hard to see why when you have 3 tonne SRM6 launcher that deals 12 dmg at the same range as an AC20.

for the weight of the AC20 in TT you can fit 4 srm6s and an srm4 for 56 damage at the same range.

[Roland]

Vassago Rain, on 18 February 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

This is the problem. Why 'crit-seek' when a barrage of SRMs are guaranteed to take the section off completely?

I think part of the problem with this may be that the damage increase SRM's received was totally unjustified.

As it stands, the SRM's are clearly one of the strongest weapons in the game. It's unclear as to why they should be doing 2.5 damage per missile rather than 2. There was never really any point in beta, ever, where SRM's were anything other than one of the best weapons in the game.

In order to make something like the LBX competitive, it may need to have its damage upped, while having the SRM damage reduced.

[De La Fresniere]

Trishena, on 18 February 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

LBX-10 is absolutly perfect as it is now.

Quite a statement. Sarcasm?

Else, well... statements are generally more convincing when backed up by some sort of evidence or credible arguments.

[Vodrin Thales]

Vassago Rain, on 18 February 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

They're not effective in any range, because they deal 1 damage to locations, spread all over the mech. It's a terrible gun.

Simply not true. Inside of 100m any reasonably good marksman can put most of if not all the pellets into one torso location, making it a shorter ranged AC 10 with lower heat tonnage and crits. The range limitation is crippling at times however. To buff it all that needs to be done is to tighten the pellet spread, particularly at long range. The damage is fine, just a bit to hard to place outside of point blank range.