25 replies to this topic

[Oni Ralas]

"Hey Johnny! Congrats on the mech learners permit! Now let's put you in this Atlas..."

I have a small problem with this game - and it comes in the form of progression. It seems odd to me that, lore asside, a new player would be given keys to specialized mechs. Assault mechs for example -- very slow, hard to manuver, requires control over a large array of weaponry. One doesn't usually get thrown into the mix in the biggest thing he/she can afford (which they can after the cadet bonus runs its course) or even just hoppin' in the IS's version of Avis.

I didn't give it much thought until the last few games where we have atlas' doing 18 damage. Yes, thats right - 18 damage. Spectating on someone who can barely turn the mech let alone fire 4 weapon arrays is just down right painful. I don't blame the player for being (obviously) new, I blame the current system that has no penalty for taking something the player isn't ready for (hell -- encouraging it!). It would be nice to see - down the road - some form of progression where mastering a chassis ment you could branch into other specialized fields, not just unlock more bellls for bullet sponges.

[AlexEss]

Nah... Better to let people play what they want and have fun. This is entertainment after all.

[Redshift2k5]

They specifically wanted all mechs to be available for all players, so it would not feel like an unfair 'arms race'.

your progression comes from grinding money to buy upgrades and grinding gxp/money to buy modules.

[Mackman]

You're going to get torn a new one for suggesting that players should be restricted to lighter mechs as they're learning.

In some ways, I agree with you: It really hurts to see someone miserably failing at driving an Atlas, especially knowing that the other team's corresponding Assault is likely being driven to greater effect.

On the other hand, I think it's really doubtful that I'll ever enjoy piloting Light mechs (or most mediums) as much as I enjoy my Catapult, Cataphract, Stalker, and Atlai. Also, learning to pilot a light mech effectively does nothing to help you pilot an assault mech effectively: They're two completely different experiences.

This problem will be greatly helped by Elo: It will be helped again by tutorials when they get around to it. No "license progression" needed.

[Oni Ralas]

Redshift2k5, on 18 February 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

They specifically wanted all mechs to be available for all players, so it would not feel like an unfair 'arms race'.

your progression comes from grinding money to buy upgrades and grinding gxp/money to buy modules.

The modules and unlocks, as they stand, aren't much of an increase over stock.

I understand people want to pew pew with variety - but lack of any barriers (artificial or not) just means a headlong rush into things best suited for deeper playtime.

[Vassago Rain]

Oni Ralas, on 18 February 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

"Hey Johnny! Congrats on the mech learners permit! Now let's put you in this Atlas..."

I have a small problem with this game - and it comes in the form of progression. It seems odd to me that, lore asside, a new player would be given keys to specialized mechs. Assault mechs for example -- very slow, hard to manuver, requires control over a large array of weaponry. One doesn't usually get thrown into the mix in the biggest thing he/she can afford (which they can after the cadet bonus runs its course) or even just hoppin' in the IS's version of Avis.

I didn't give it much thought until the last few games where we have atlas' doing 18 damage. Yes, thats right - 18 damage. Spectating on someone who can barely turn the mech let alone fire 4 weapon arrays is just down right painful. I don't blame the player for being (obviously) new, I blame the current system that has no penalty for taking something the player isn't ready for (hell -- encouraging it!). It would be nice to see - down the road - some form of progression where mastering a chassis ment you could branch into other specialized fields, not just unlock more bellls for bullet sponges.

A bad player is gonna do nothing no matter the mech. Let them wiggle in their freshly bought, n00b green atlases.
If you shoot what they're shooting, you'll usually accomplish something.

[Angus McBeef]

I agree that progression of this sort would be interesting. Although you are a little vague, I'm guessing you want to have to 'earn' your way into the bigger, badder, mechs. However, any sort of mechanic that involves 'unlocking' or 'earning' falls under the umbrella of 'grinding.' More often than not, members of the MWO community tend to vehemently oppose the inclusion of any such features especially if they have an impact on the 'new user flow' which this sort of progression definitely does. Therefore, while the idea might sound good to you or me, it is highly unlikely to receive much support here.

[WildeKarde]

The game is about having fun and not being put down by experienced players with the bigger mechs - don't force everyone to play from commando up to "earn" the right to play the mechs they want.The only way a new player will learn is by playing the mechs.

[Sean von Steinike]

I'd consider piloting an Atlas a downgrade from piloting say, a Commando.

[LordBraxton]

That new player who can't handle the weapon systems on an assault will be the light pilot who stops to fire and gets one shotted by me.

Doesn't matter what weight class people gotta learn the hard way.

[Oni Ralas]

Mackman, on 18 February 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

You're going to get torn a new one for suggesting that players should be restricted to lighter mechs as they're learning.

In some ways, I agree with you: It really hurts to see someone miserably failing at driving an Atlas, especially knowing that the other team's corresponding Assault is likely being driven to greater effect.

On the other hand, I think it's really doubtful that I'll ever enjoy piloting Light mechs (or most mediums) as much as I enjoy my Catapult, Cataphract, Stalker, and Atlai. Also, learning to pilot a light mech effectively does nothing to help you pilot an assault mech effectively: They're two completely different experiences.

This problem will be greatly helped by Elo: It will be helped again by tutorials when they get around to it. No "license progression" needed.

Doesn't have to be pure linear progression from light <---->assault. A light/med mix with a releativly fast introduction into heavies wouldn't be hard (time played, unlocks, etc) with the movement from heavy-->assault taking longer. Hell, even make certain sublassicifactions (variants) accessible only by seat time. I dunno, it just strikes me as odd that, even with the matchmaking changes about to hit, folks are turned loose in 100ton mechs on day 1. Having lots of guns and lots of armor can hide bad players only so much.

[Nathan Foxbane]

...? So the Chameleon and Crockett have been the 'Mechs of choice for Mechwarrior academies across the Inner Sphere to train cadets how to pilot lights/mediums and heavies/assaults since the the Star League why exactly OP? Most pilots get assigned to whatever is available or fits best with their Lance. Militia pilots get trained in the 'Mech they are issued if their unit does not have a designated training 'Mech. Merc pilots have to be able to adapt to anything as their ride can change from battle to battle if it gets shot out from under them. If you can pilot one 'Mech you can pilot almost ANY 'Mech to a reasonable degree as the only thing that changes 'Mech to 'Mech are the quirks of a design and the layout of the cockpit.

[Oni Ralas]

Sean von Steinike, on 18 February 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

I'd consider piloting an Atlas a downgrade from piloting say, a Commando.

It hides bad play in the form of survival. Pure chassis weights aren't what I'm aiming at here - it's the role classification that matters. Speed tanks need to learn how to be flown vs. ECM counter boats.


I guess I played EVE waaaay to long.

Nathan Foxbane, on 18 February 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

...? So the Chameleon and Crockett have been the 'Mechs of choice for Mechwarrior academies across the Inner Sphere to train cadets how to pilot lights/mediums and heavies/assaults since the the Star League why exactly OP? Most pilots get assigned to whatever is available or fits best with their Lance. Militia pilots get trained in the 'Mech they are issued if their unit does not have a designated training 'Mech. Merc pilots have to be able to adapt to anything as their ride can change from battle to battle if it gets shot out from under them. If you can pilot one 'Mech you can pilot almost ANY 'Mech to a reasonable degree as the only thing that changes 'Mech to 'Mech are the quirks of a design and the layout of the cockpit.

Hence the *lore aside* portion. Unfortunately for us, mechs are not normalized in speed, size and agility (thankfully!). As such, slowboating a bruiser into oncoming fire is just teaching bad habbits.

I want games to be fun, I want them to be competitive. I don't want little timmy in a 6ppc stalker if he can't aim the ******* thing.

[Mackman]

Oni Ralas, on 18 February 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

It hides bad play in the form of survival. Pure chassis weights aren't what I'm aiming at here - it's the role classification that matters. Speed tanks need to learn how to be flown vs. ECM counter boats.


I guess I played EVE waaaay to long.



Hence the *lore aside* portion. Unfortunately for us, mechs are not normalized in speed, size and agility (thankfully!). As such, slowboating a bruiser into oncoming fire is just teaching bad habbits.

I want games to be fun, I want them to be competitive. I don't want little timmy in a 6ppc stalker if he can't aim the ******* thing.

And that's where Elo comes in. If little timmy can't aim, and you can, then little timmy won't be playing with you. Since it's only 1 day away, I think we can wait and see if Elo fixes the problem.

[Tarman]

Oni Ralas, on 18 February 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

It hides bad play in the form of survival. Pure chassis weights aren't what I'm aiming at here - it's the role classification that matters. Speed tanks need to learn how to be flown vs. ECM counter boats.


I guess I played EVE waaaay to long.



Hence the *lore aside* portion. Unfortunately for us, mechs are not normalized in speed, size and agility (thankfully!). As such, slowboating a bruiser into oncoming fire is just teaching bad habbits.

I want games to be fun, I want them to be competitive. I don't want little timmy in a 6ppc stalker if he can't aim the ******* thing.

This is matchmaking territory, not restricting mech choice territory. Rookies shouldn't be in the bigboy pool in the first place no matter what they're driving. You think Timmy's gonna live longer against a stomping because he's driving a Jenner instead of a Stalker? He just needs to be in his own special pool till he does know how to not cook his own internals.

[Mechteric]

Oni Ralas, on 18 February 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

"Hey Johnny! Congrats on the mech learners permit! Now let's put you in this Atlas..."

I didn't give it much thought until the last few games where we have atlas' doing 18 damage. Yes, thats right - 18 damage. Spectating on someone who can barely turn the mech let alone fire 4 weapon arrays is just down right painful. I don't blame the player for being (obviously) new, I blame the current system that has no penalty for taking something the player isn't ready for (hell -- encouraging it!). It would be nice to see - down the road - some form of progression where mastering a chassis ment you could branch into other specialized fields, not just unlock more bellls for bullet sponges.

unfortunately you are forgetting that same player if instead he were made to be in a light or a medium mech would do exactly the same amount of damage. The problem isn't the mech they are in, but rather they are playing against people with much higher skill. This is what the matchmaking coming tomorrow should start to address at least in some fashion. Later on some kind of in-game training mode would also be helpful to convey things to new players that they need to know.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 18 February 2013 - 11:57 AM.

[Oni Ralas]

LordBraxton, on 18 February 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

That new player who can't handle the weapon systems on an assault will be the light pilot who stops to fire and gets one shotted by me.

Doesn't matter what weight class people gotta learn the hard way.

Right now, there is no penalty for learning the hard way. Free mech? Zero loss in experience for doing something stupid (other than teamkills, which is what, 100xp? negated easily). One could Leroy his/her way in every single game and still earn cbills and progression. True of any game I suppose...but most have some form of risk involved.

Mackman, on 18 February 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

And that's where Elo comes in. If little timmy can't aim, and you can, then little timmy won't be playing with you. Since it's only 1 day away, I think we can wait and see if Elo fixes the problem.

And I really *really* hope it works as intended. The pilot tier unlock portion was more about teaching the player rather than the matching system, but they go hand in hand. The IP has a long way to go and lots of stuff in the mix, but I'm sure the future tutorial + matching systems will help a bunch. Still think it's wrong to have access to the biggest aresenal based purely on economic factors (with no money sink right now) but hey... whatever eh?

CapperDeluxe, on 18 February 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

unfortunately you are forgetting that same player if instead he were made to be in a light or a medium mech would do exactly the same amount of damage. The problem isn't the mech they are in, but rather they are playing against people with much higher skill. This is what the matchmaking coming tomorrow should start to address at least in some fashion. Later on some kind of in-game training mode would also be helpful to convey things to new players that they need to know.

Tis what I basically said -- I didn't blame the player, I blamed the current system of easy access + random tossup of matching. ELO (I hope) will help but doesn't get to the core of the problem in my mind. I'm thinking too much on the EVE or traditional MMO mindset I guess, where progress ment both mastering the basiscs while intaking new content.

[Tarman]

Oni Ralas, on 18 February 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Right now, there is no penalty for learning the hard way. Free mech? Zero loss in experience for doing something stupid (other than teamkills, which is what, 100xp? negated easily). One could Leroy his/her way in every single game and still earn cbills and progression. True of any game I suppose...but most have some form of risk involved.



And I really *really* hope it works as intended. The pilot tier unlock portion was more about teaching the player rather than the matching system, but they go hand in hand. The IP has a long way to go and lots of stuff in the mix, but I'm sure the future tutorial + matching systems will help a bunch. Still think it's wrong to have access to the biggest aresenal based purely on economic factors (with no money sink right now) but hey... whatever eh?



Tis what I basically said -- I didn't blame the player, I blamed the current system of easy access + random tossup of matching. ELO (I hope) will help but doesn't get to the core of the problem in my mind. I'm thinking too much on the EVE or traditional MMO mindset I guess, where progress ment both mastering the basiscs while intaking new content.

The easy access is because there is no other part to the game except robot fighting. There isn't a game world for the game to be in to justify an arbitrary restriction; no immersive factor outside personal imagination, no AI dude telling you why you need to stay in Commandos till you get your bigboy pants on or handing out digital medals. Restricting access at this stage is simply that, just keeping people out of rides they want to drive.

[Mercules]

Tarman, on 18 February 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

The easy access is because there is no other part to the game except robot fighting. There isn't a game world for the game to be in to justify an arbitrary restriction; no immersive factor outside personal imagination, no AI dude telling you why you need to stay in Commandos till you get your bigboy pants on or handing out digital medals. Restricting access at this stage is simply that, just keeping people out of rides they want to drive.

What is laughable is you thinking piloting an Atlas takes more skill than a Commando. Different skill set, yes, more not even close.

[Corpsecandle]

Assaults have a learning curve that's arguably steeper than any other mech out there. I don't think it really matters how long you've been playing, the first couple of times you drop in an assault mech, you're gonna suck. By no means am I heavens gift in a 'phract, but I can at least put in a solid showing, but in my Atlas I feel as useful as a beached whale. It's heartbreaking to know that I'm doing well under par for my team when I roll in my Atlas, but the only way to get better at the moment is to practice in game and thereby drag down my teams score.