95 replies to this topic

[Kyone Akashi]

cjmurphy87, on 18 February 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

I'm not very up on my TT rules (i played it once a long time ago), but my understanding was you did your to hit roll, and if you didn't get a hit, the launcher didn't fire(didn't expend ammo, didn't generate heat). Not that you skipped the hit roll entirely.

Yes, that has always been the case. That being said, the "to hit roll" only means weapons targeting, which leaves a lot of room for interpretation. One could say that what SSRMs do now (having the pilot keep the missile reticule on target until he or she achieves hard lock) is exactly that.

Where MWO differs from this basic rule (in addition to how ECM and Guardian interact) is that the pilot only needs to acquire hard lock once. Granted, the 'Mech needs to keep being pointed roughly towards the target's position to retain it, but it is certainly much easier to keep the lock than first locking on.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 18 February 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[Ashnod]

cjmurphy87, on 18 February 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

I'm not very up on my TT rules (i played it once a long time ago), but my understanding was you did your to hit roll, and if you didn't get a hit, the launcher didn't fire(didn't expend ammo, didn't generate heat). Not that you skipped the hit roll entirely.

Every time you try to fire them you had to roll it hit, if you won the roll all missiles hit (no cluster rolls) and if you missed the to hit the launcher just didn't fire an therefor no heat gain.

The original roll was labeled rolling for lock btw.. Which is why I suggest that lock is cleared after firing and a new reticule be added for streaks.

Edited by Ashnod, 18 February 2013 - 02:02 PM.

[Cache]

Chou Senwan, on 18 February 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Alternately, Streak SRMs could just fire in a straight line, and if they come within 30 meters of ANY mech, they curve and home into that mech.

That is a Swarm missile.

[Khobai]

Quote

No, ECM is kinda shunned in the clans. Goes against their 1 v 1 duke it out honorable style of combat

No its not. In fact they like ECM so much they invented a better version of it that only takes up 1 ton and 1 crit slot.

[Ashnod]

Khobai, on 18 February 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

No its not. In fact they like ECM so much they invented a better version of it that only takes up 1 ton and 1 crit slot.

Already mentioned in thread, also they designed angel ECM which is 2 crits and I think 2 tons

[neke]

LauLiao, on 18 February 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

Everyone is talking about the "Fire or don't" mechanic, but I don't see anyone mentioning the fact that hit locations in TT were differernt for streaks. If I recall corectly, besides only firing if you hit, all the missles hit a single location, but not necessarily CT, but randomly determined by the hit location table. There have been times when I really really really wished I could aim for something OTHER than CT with streaks.

Roland, on 18 February 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

If implemented like TT rules, each missile on streaks would have a chance to hit, and then any ones which were misses wouldn't fire. This would be superior to simply firing and missing, in that it wouldn't actually spend any ammo on that shot.

CBT lesson:
Streak Launchers roll for hits, two possible outcomes are there:
a ) Miss.
No ammo is consumed, no heat is generated.
Basically nothing happened when the pilot pulled the trigger.
Thats it.

b ) Hit.
Ammo is consumed, heat is generated.
A SSRM2 fires two, SSRM4 four and SSRM6 six missiles.
Roll for every single missile a hit location, apply damage. This basically means for a SSRM6: Roll for "Do i hit the mech?" once, then roll "which location do i hit" six times.

TL;DR: In CBT, a Streak SRM will either miss and not waste ammo/produce heat at all OR all missiles will hit, although most likely different hit locations.

Edited by neke, 18 February 2013 - 02:09 PM.

[Kyone Akashi]

Ashnod, on 18 February 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Already mentioned in thread, also they designed angel ECM which is 2 crits and I think 2 tons

The Angel ECM was developed in the Draconis Combine. The Clans just liked it so much they copied the tech.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 18 February 2013 - 02:08 PM.

[Ashnod]

Kyone Akashi, on 18 February 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

The Angel ECM was developed in the Draconis Combine. The Clans just liked it so much they copied the tech.

Derp ><

[Orzorn]

neke, on 18 February 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

CBT lesson:
Streak Launchers roll for hits, two possible outcomes are there:
a ) Miss.
No ammo is consumed, no heat is generated.
Basically nothing happened when the pilot pulled the trigger.
Thats it.

b ) Hit.
Ammo is consumed, heat is generated.
A SSRM2 fires two, SSRM4 four and SSRM6 six missiles.
Roll for every single missile a hit location, apply damage. This basically means for a SSRM6: Roll for "Do i hit the mech?" once, then roll "which location do i hit" six times.

TL;DR: In CBT, a Streak SRM will either miss and not waste ammo/produce heat at all OR all missiles will hit, although most likely different hit locations.

Which is pretty much what we have now.

The issue lies in that MWO streaks are incredible easy to get and maintain a lock. For a weapon that is supposed to be 100% sure you'll hit, you sure can look REALLY far away from the target and still keep that lock.

As far as I'm concerned, you should be looking pretty much right at them. This wouldn't make SSRMs worse than SRMs, just different. You'd have to be good enough to keep your reticule steady on the target to keep consistent fire, but with SRMs, if you tried that you'd miss a lot due to dodging and weaving. SSRMs don't care about any maneuver that doesn't involve going behind an obstacle, nor are they dependant on the speed of the mech (firing SRMs at mech moving 64 kp/h vs 140 kp/h is a very different experience. Not so for streaks, as long as you can put your reticule on them).

The issue right now is that you can be extremely fast moving and the ease at which a lock is gained with streaks, and the difficulty involved it breaking it, is huge. I checked the numbers one day. Its about 45 degrees on each side that you can look before the lock breaks, which is pretty ridiculous.

The issue is that if you reduce the "lock box" for SSRMs, you run into LRM+SSRM issues, because they both use the same circle lock indicator. It is for that reason I suggested a new indicator for Streaks, such as having the small arm target circle turn into a square when you have an SSRM lock.

[Texugo87]

Thanks for the clarification on the single hit roll with multiple location rolls, I thought it was multiple hit rolls.

So, what I'm getting at is, ssrm were as "difficult" to use as srms in TT, as in they required the same type of roll to make a hit, correct? the difference was ssrms didn't waste ammo or generate heat if they didn't succeed at the hit roll (or we could call it a lock roll). So another way to look at it using the roll to lock language would be srm's attempt to get a lock, but fire anyway if they don't; ssrm's attempt to get a lock but didn't fire if they didn't get one.

I still stand by the purpose in my suggestion for a change to the streak mechanic, which is that ssrm should be the same difficulty to make hit as srm, but just shouldn't waste heat and ammo if they don't hit. The lock mechanic we have makes ssrm way easier to use than srm as you don't have to lead.

Without altering the way SRM work in MWO, if we want to achieve the same difficulty in use what I would propose is as follows:
1. Lead and pull trigger, no lock on system
2. State rewind or other server based system checks if a single, ballistic projectile travelling at srm speed (300m/s) would have hit the mech you are shooting at, sends results back to your client.
3. if successful you fire SSRM that now track to where ever the target is now, and follow the same or similar damage spread mechanic we have now. If unsuccessful no expenditure of ammo, no heat generated, but cool down still triggered, makes no lock sound SSRM currently do.
4. SSRM either travel at 200m/s in animation, or travel at SRM speed of 300m/s with reduced hitpoints to allow same AMS intercept rate.

I would trigger the cool down to prevent people from just holding down the trigger and sweeping the target.

Thoughts? Does this comply with the spirit of SSRM from table top, while making it workable in our current frame work?

Edited by cjmurphy87, 18 February 2013 - 02:33 PM.

[Cache]

cjmurphy87, on 18 February 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

So another way to look at it using the roll to lock language would be srm's attempt to get a lock, but fire anyway if they don't; ssrm's attempt to get a lock but didn't fire if they didn't get one.

SRMs = No guidance. Point and shoot. If the target is hit between 1 and all missiles hit. There is no "attempt to get a lock," you essentially are firing an LBX autocannon with cluster rounds.
Streaks = Guided. Launcher doesn't lock: no launch. Launcher locks: launch. All missiles home in on target.

[Kyone Akashi]

cjmurphy87, on 18 February 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

Thoughts? Does this comply with the spirit of SSRM from table top, while making it workable in our current frame work?

I'd really keep the fingers off any sort of "pre-shot" solution. If you make SSRMs depend on an invisible projectile launched before, the most notable results would be:
1) it takes considerably longer until your weapon actually fires (about a full second, which in the heat of battle feels way longer) since the launcher needs to wait until the invisible "pre-shot" has hit its target
2) you will still have "impossible shots" because within the one second the actual SSRMs need to travel, the target 'Mech could change its position in a way that would have prevented the "pre-shot" from hitting

[Trauglodyte]

Cache, on 18 February 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Why not leave lock acquisition as it is and just break the lock after every shot?

You could do that but you would need to allow lock to remain for 1s after firing as the SRM has a 270m range and a 300m/s velocity. If you were to break lock at the second of firing, the missiles would stop tracking and you'd end up with a missile system that required lock but would never hit its target.

Personally, I've been pushing for a relock being necessary for Streaks and LRMs from the beginning. We'll see what happens, though.

[Cache]

Trauglodyte, on 18 February 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

You could do that but you would need to allow lock to remain for 1s after firing as the SRM has a 270m range and a 300m/s velocity. If you were to break lock at the second of firing, the missiles would stop tracking and you'd end up with a missile system that required lock but would never hit its target.

I've never took a hard look at it, but do streaks currently miss if you lose the lock? I was under the impression they hit regardless.

Trauglodyte, on 18 February 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Personally, I've been pushing for a relock being necessary for Streaks and LRMs from the beginning. We'll see what happens, though.

You and me both. Well... ok... maybe just several months for me.

[Orzorn]

Trauglodyte, on 18 February 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

You could do that but you would need to allow lock to remain for 1s after firing as the SRM has a 270m range and a 300m/s velocity. If you were to break lock at the second of firing, the missiles would stop tracking and you'd end up with a missile system that required lock but would never hit its target.

No, you would not. SSRMs still track their target even now even if you lose the lock immediately after firing, at least to my knowledge.

[Dirus Nigh]

I think missile flight behavier is a good way to change streaks. Like LRMs they need have a flight path that forces the missile to track a target. Rather than press fire button shoot strait to target, no matter what direction the launcher is pointed.

having LRMs and SSRMs targeting location dependent is another solution that needs to be looked at. Right now it does not matter were on the mech my missile launchers are, they will track with the arm ring. LRMs and streaks should be tied to the aiming point for the location they are mounted on. This would arm and torso mounted missiles behave differently. There would be a distinction between an arm or torso mounted missile point. IT would also bring a little more reliance on skill.

[ConnorSinclair]

Khobai, on 18 February 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Not that hard to implement.

1) when you pull trigger, streak launchers fire an invisible dummy missile that tracks the target but has a chance of missing.
2) if the dummy missile hits, the streaks fire, and all the streaks automatically hit.
3) if the dummy missile misses, the streaks simply dont fire, but the cooldown is still expended as if you had fired.

There would be an odd firing delay between when you pull the trigger and the missiles actually fire... but that delay shouldnt affect accuracy much since at that point it wouldve already been determined if the missiles will hit or not (I suppose a friendly mech could step in the way though, but that can happen now).

This is close to how they were in MW4, and damn near cannon.


What I'm guessing is that Streaks actually have a lock and LTD fire control system,

in MW4 if you hit scan a part of the mech or the air, the streaks would fly off after what ever part you tapped on.


MW3 just treated them like slower LRMs with a limited turn radius, I actually find these more fun AND realistic.

[Orzorn]

Dirus Nigh, on 18 February 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

I think missile flight behavier is a good way to change streaks. Like LRMs they need have a flight path that forces the missile to track a target. Rather than press fire button shoot strait to target, no matter what direction the launcher is pointed.

having LRMs and SSRMs targeting location dependent is another solution that needs to be looked at. Right now it does not matter were on the mech my missile launchers are, they will track with the arm ring. LRMs and streaks should be tied to the aiming point for the location they are mounted on. This would arm and torso mounted missiles behave differently. There would be a distinction between an arm or torso mounted missile point. IT would also bring a little more reliance on skill.

It would also give mechs more marked differences. The Hunchback would be a worse SSRM carrier than a Trebuchet, for instance.

[Cache]

ConnorSinclair, on 18 February 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

What I'm guessing is that Streaks actually have a lock and LTD fire control system,

Here's the description out of TechManual:

Quote

The Star League development of the Streak SRM missile system was a significant enhancement of existent missile launcher technology, incorporating a kind of “smart override” feature in the targeting and firing mechanisms. Developed as a means of conserving ammunition, the Streak system literally refuses to fire unless all of the launcher’s tubes simultaneously achieve a “hard lock” on their target. While this approach guarantees a hit when the weapon fires, some have seen the system’s requirement for using only its own missile types (rather than any of the specialty munitions now available) as a hindrance.

Edited by Cache, 18 February 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[Kyone Akashi]

And this is one from Era Report 3052:

"Streak short-range missiles, with their ability to conserve ammo by using a targeting laser for the missiles to home in on, were rediscovered by the Free Worlds League in 3055 and the other nations in 3040. [...] In addition to the specialized electronics of the targeting system, the missiles require built-in guidance technology and power sources, doubling the cost of ammunition compared to a standard SRM."
- ER3052, page 100, Missile Technology

Personally ... if it's just the launcher that would be different (refusing to fire unless having 100% hit probability), then it should not need special missiles but could launch normal SRMs just as much as any other special ammunition that any SRM launcher may be loaded with.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 18 February 2013 - 03:08 PM.