483 replies to this topic

[LtPoncho]

Matchmaker is un-*******-believable. Beta beta beta beta beta yeah yeah yeah yeah - heard that tune before.

[Void Angel]

That's because it IS beta. I'm sure the uneven drops we've been seeing (my favorite was the 7v8 where their 8th was the only assault in the match) are unintended and they'll fix them as soon as they can. My guess is that it's the "expanding parameters" that the matchmaker uses as our time in the queue goes longer - so they'll just have to change how far open the matchmaking parameters go.

[Sable Dove]

My games were more fair and more fun without ELO. Occasionally I run into a pretty close match, but those tend always seem to end up with me getting 1000 XP worth of kills and assists because my team isn't really dealing much damage. It's not fun doing all the work. I've had games where ELO decided that 4 lights on one team and none on the other was fair, so I had to lumber on back to our base to prevent a cap, where I met all four of their lights alone because our team had nothing that could make it back in time.

Here's another thing: it should never, ever start a game with uneven teams. Because a team that has one less mech is virtually guaranteed to lose unless the smaller team has a premade, and the bigger team doesn't.

[Void Angel]

See, I've been smoking people pretty well since Elo, and before. I really didn't see a difference in team quality - except for the mismatched 'mechs. 4-man light cap warrior teams are frankly the most annoying, followed closely by uneven teams. That certainly needs fixed, but an Elo system so I don't have to play with people who say "Screw you, I'm a light! I won't scout, that's dangerous?" That's worth the hiccups in the short term. I know PGI is looking at this - that's almost certainly what the tournament is about. Once they get all the data from the tournament to crunch through, I expect them to tune the matchmaker (if not sooner.)

To counter the uneven number of lights, you have to:

• Make sure your own lights are scouting
  
• Camp a point near your base and engage there if you don't have the scout coverage to prevent a CapWarrior victory.

[arghmace]

Carmaga, on 23 February 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

ECM does not need fix. It's not op.
...
Problem is that MM3 puts usually the ECM to one team while other team has none.

Ok, please tell me another equipment that must be balanced between teams. Is it a certain victory if only the other team has BAPs? Or maybe lots of PPCs while the other team has none? This here is the very definition of something being OP if having it while the opposing team doesn't is a huge problem like you yourself say.

I also think you are wrong saying ECM is OP only to missile users. As many people have said, hard-countering missiles is actually a smallish problem compared to the stealth bubble, denial of targeting (there goes your focus fire down the drain) and most importantly not even seeing where your team mates are.

[1985]

Matchmaking is a step in the right direction, but as implemented right now, is inadequate. I will explain why, and propose a fix:

The joy of mechwarriors depends much on playing viable matches over a variety of mechs, despite the empirical reality that some mechs are overpowered compared to others; previously, with random matchmaking, this problem was swept under the rug. In the current system, it is incredibly clear which mechs are better and which mechs are worse. Essentially, I can only win when I am driving a winning mech. (Altenatively, it may because my skill with say RVN-3L or STK-5S is much higher than RVN-4X -- but the degradation of enjoyment applies regardless)

One easy fix would be to give each player a separate ELO score for each mech they own. This way, I will play against lower tier players in my RVN-4X than I would in my RVN-3L.

Edited by 1985, 24 February 2013 - 03:52 AM.

[Thoummim]

I wanted this new matchmaking so bad but there is a HUGE problem.

Games with like 8 assault against 8 med yeah I know both are supposed to have equal skill but come on we all know who are going to win. Or putting 4light in one team and assault heavy only on the other in conquest...

The game IS FAR MORE imbalanced than it was before...

[Carmaga]

arghmace, on 24 February 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

Ok, please tell me another equipment that must be balanced between teams. Is it a certain victory if only the other team has BAPs? Or maybe lots of PPCs while the other team has none? This here is the very definition of something being OP if having it while the opposing team doesn't is a huge problem like you yourself say.

I also think you are wrong saying ECM is OP only to missile users. As many people have said, hard-countering missiles is actually a smallish problem compared to the stealth bubble, denial of targeting (there goes your focus fire down the drain) and most importantly not even seeing where your team mates are.

Rock, paper, scissors.

Give eight scissors to other team and eight papers to other. Thats op. But when you give equal amount of scissors to both teams, it's balanced. Then lets add to equation the rock. Give to other team 4xrocks and 4xscissors and to other team 8xpapers. Thats op. You get the point. The thing MM3 should do is balance teams. Not giving eg. 4xECM assaults + LRM assault stalkers on other team (Disclaimer: The previous statement has been exaggerated for effect).

Regarding ECM, both teams should be equal/balanced. The following is only my personal opinion why ecm is not OP. And why I'm not afraid of it in the battlefield:

Maveric: "focus fire that stalker at G3"
Breta: "which one? there's two stalkers!"
Maveric: "Left one"

Or in pug games you can just follow others and shoot what your team is firing. Bullets are not invisible. You'll get your focus fire. And if someone has a tag - omg it's a powerful weapon: not for lrms, but focusing your team fire. If you have eg a target caller in your team, he can position himself outside ECM bubble and tag the target who to fire. Non-verbal and instant communication. And if you have a good narc shooter, that'll do it.

Most powerful thing to counter stealth bubble is heat vision and using your brains and communication. ECM does not make you blind. Eg, In forest colony (when you drop to west side of map) -- if you can't see enemies in water, neither @F6, F7, E6, E7 (river/bridge) area, you can assume camping @D7 or tunnel rush. If you spot 4 mechs in water, you can assume others are @shore-side of the map or camping in their base.

When you lose a sight of your team on your radar, it doesn't mean that they are not there anymore. They are next to you. If they die, you'll see it in top left corner and you'll know it's time to regroup. And surely you'll see the lasers, srms, ppc's and particles if your team engages the enemies front of you. In pug games, you'll have just to prepare that your team mates might panic and flee and leave you alone. Twist your torso and check where they are. At the same time, you'll spread the inevitable incoming damage. But if you are in TS, just ask where your wingman is. You can still see the map grid and if you are in same grid, you'll do just fine.

The things I'm afraid of are laggy 150+ light mechs (specially if you encounter 4 of them), IDKFA IDDQD insta-kill builds and so on. And I don't like to be hit by lrms (eg. from 4 boats). AMS needs some tweaks.

Edited by Carmaga, 24 February 2013 - 05:43 AM.

[arghmace]

Carmaga, on 24 February 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

Rock, paper, scissors.

The problem here is that the rock to counter scissors-ECM is another ECM. It's broken since it's only real counter is itself and thus rock, paper, scissors is ruined. Anyway you didn't answer my question: which other equipment is SO important that it must be balanced between both teams? If you cannot answer this, then ECM is clearly more powerful than any other equipment.

[RadimentriX]

seriously: **** you, PGI!

5,5 lights with 4x ecm vs no lights and ecm at all

Edited by RadimentriX, 24 February 2013 - 05:50 AM.

[Carmaga]

arghmace, on 24 February 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

I believe I answered your question on my previous post. And yes, both teams should be equal.

SRM6 for example is more powerful than ECM. Every gun which deals enormous amount of damage eg. Gauss Rifle or AC20 is more powerful than ECM. Speed is more powerful than ECM. Lag is more powerful than ECM. And both teams should have these equally, including ECM builds. Current MM3 + ELO is not balanced. It gives too many of these perks only to other team.

ECM came to counter LRM boats. LRM was OP before the nerf and before the ECM. And atm. LRM is OP if you are against 4 pure boat builds and your team does not have terrain cover neither ECM.

Edited by Carmaga, 24 February 2013 - 06:11 AM.

[Tolkien]

Carmaga, on 24 February 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

I believe I answered your question on my previous post. And yes, both teams should be equal.

SRM6 for example is more powerful than ECM. Every gun which deals enormous amount of damage eg. Gauss Rifle or AC20 is more powerful than ECM. Speed is more powerful than ECM. Lag is more powerful than ECM. And both teams should have these equally. Current MM3 + ELO is not balanced. It gives too many of these perks only to other team.

I don't see an answer to his question of what other piece of equipment in the game do you propose needs to be equally allocated between teams to ensure balance.

This is explicit agreement that an ECM differential between teams damages balance, and tacit acknowledgement that it's too powerful for 1.5 tons.

[zmeul]

after playing a few matches with the ELO system in place, I have a feeling it doesn't work properly, the one sided matches still exist
and without the ability to know if there was a premade (or many) in one or both of the teams, is not helping either

[Carmaga]

Tolkien, on 24 February 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

I don't see an answer to his question of what other piece of equipment in the game do you propose needs to be equally allocated between teams to ensure balance.

This is explicit agreement that an ECM differential between teams damages balance, and tacit acknowledgement that it's too powerful for 1.5 tons.

There is a dedicated thread for ECM. I'm talking about MM3 and Elo and team balancing. 1 ECM build is not a big deal when your team has none. If other team has 3xECM builds or more and your team has none, it's starting to be a big deal. And it's definitely not balanced. This same goes with splatpults, light mechs, mediums, hevies, lrm boats, assaults, poptarts and other IDDQD über builds.

Edited by Carmaga, 24 February 2013 - 06:36 AM.

[Hekalite]

I'll let the ECM debate carry on without me that is a discussion for just about any other thread. On the topic of this thread...

Phase 3 matchmaking is greatly improved over any previous incarnation of the matchmaker. Solo drops are fun again for me. There are still matches which are clearly not even, but it is very unusual to get even two in a row. I'm looking forward to future refinements because while I consider it good now, I'll take a better version if you can make it better. Who wouldn't?

I do hope that as the system improves you consider removing the 4 person group restriction. After playing in the tournament I can see it's not quite ready for that, but hopefully as the match prediction algorithm gets better at weighing the advantage of a group you can find a way to account for it, which should make the current restriction unnecessary.

[Ghostbear Gurdel]

I would love to see the 4 man cap go away. I have 6 friends and we regularly play at the same time. The 4 man team limit, makes it hard for us to game together.

[Riall]

I've been getting uneven matches all weekend. 8/0 or 0/8 are still very common and the above complaints regarding ECM are a good part of that problem. Every match is 2-3+ ECM mechs to 0 non-ECM. Or lights/mediums vs heavy/assaults. The ELO score may be matching correctly, but the loadout balance is completely off and this makes it impossible to tell if the problem is player skill differential or mech loadout differential. Match like vs like along with ELO or at least prioritize it above minor ELO differences.

[PhoenixFire55]

Not matching mech types is complete bull*hit. Alpine map is the size all maps should be, now imagine one team has 2 lights and other team has none and tell me who is gonna win conquest game on Alpine? Mech types should be no.1 priority for matchmaker, when it did match them everybody was happy the way it worked. Nobody needs this ELO crap which makes no sense anyway. Put 8 people of same skill in 3L Ravens and 8 people of the same skill as group one in mediums and guess who is gonna win?

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 24 February 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[arghmace]

Carmaga, on 24 February 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

SRM6 for example is more powerful than ECM.

I'm sorry but you're out of your bloody mind, friend

[WraithMandaka]

Current matchmaking system is for single players who do not want to join or play in a group. And that is fine, for those players. It keeps things things balanced (or not in its current form) and people will fight against others with similar skill levels.

There are other groups of players however that will never be able to drop against each other if we dont have another system. We NEED private matchmaking so we can put our own groups together and set the parameters of the match so that we can have points and planetary league matches.

Personally, I hate how the new system sets up games. I have encountered similar groupings as other people have posted. Both on the winning and losing side. It was MUCH more fair when we were dropped by weight class rather than this new system.

There are 120 people in my clan and I cant set up training matches or trials with them because we cant do our own thing. Private matches with no C bills or XP are just fine. But we need these soon. Being in a unit brings extra value to this game that the devs may not see. If nothing else, please bring back The Zone.