221 replies to this topic

[Bad Andy]

ecm still way overpowered, please consider rebalancing its core functions devs!

[Twisted Power]

Yes that does answer it for me. So now I have a follow up question.

Do you think that, out of those unviable variants you are talking about, if ECM did not prevent long range lock (except for the jamming within 180m) and if LRMs were tweaked (or even kept the same) that there would be more viable variants to choose from due to having more weapon load out choices that can be competitive?

I have noticed that many variants could potentially be good if there was a way to equip only a few weapons that can be use in conjunction with each other. With the lack of being able to put on only 1 LRM launcher and have a verity of weapons (so the opposite of boating) is what is causing these variants to not function as well. One LRM 10 is not worth it when compared to other builds.

If ECM did not compleatly shut down multiple weapon systems and require so many counters, then a few other build and variants would actually be a good option.

Edited by Twisted Power, 28 February 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Try as I might, I just haven't found a really solid build for any CICADA variant, even the one that has ECM (that is not to say there are none...only that I have yet to find one that "I" like...any suggestions for me, I am all ears).

Only because you asked nicely. : CDA-3M. Recently I've dropped a mlaser for TAG, to help the team out. But it works well either way.

Quote

Side note: As for the Atlas...any Atlas variant they gave ECM to would become 'the' Atlas as all the variants are viable for different/various reasons (IMO). Then we have the Cicada...all the variants are 'balls' IMO, even the ECM variant. (sorry Cicada fans, just the way I feel about it....as said before I am willing to try new load outs for the Cicada if you have one you want to send my way).

I mostly agreed with you up to this point. For Assaults, the AS7-K and RS are pretty bad. On the surface they may appear fine, however their flaws begin to show once you try to come up with viable builds. The K has limited hardpoints thus weak to crits. The RS have a hard time making use of his hardpoints, ultimately settling as a slow Awesome imitator or a weaker brawler than the D-DC. The AS7-D is basically a clone of the D-DC with one less missile hardpoint and two energy slots on CT for mlasers, yet the D-DC remains as the better brawler of the two. This really leaves us with the D and D-DC as good Atlas mechs. Being that ECM is a great brawling tool, the D-DC was the "worst" mech to give it to. As for Cicadas, except for the 3M, I don't really care for the rest either. This new hero appears to have missile hardpoints, so it may become a good light hunter.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 28 February 2013 - 12:58 PM.

[Armando]

Twisted Power, on 28 February 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

Yes that does answer it for me. So now I have a follow up question.

Do you think that, out of those unviable variants you are talking about, if ECM did not prevent long range lock (except for the jamming within 180m) and if LRMs were tweaked (or even kept the same) that there would be more viable variants to choose from due to having more weapon load out choices that can be competitive?

I have noticed that many variants could potentially be good if there was a way to equip only a few weapons that can be use in conjunction with each other. With the lack of being able to put on only 1 LRM launcher and have a verity of weapons (so the opposite of boating) is what is causing these variants to not function as well.

If ECM did not compleatly shut down multiple weapon systems and require so many counters than some (not all) other build and variants would actually be a good option.

Not sure I fully understand the question, but I will do my best to tell you tweaks/changes that could help make ALL variants viable/unique (much like the Awesome)...

...Raise / Low max engine sizes.
...Increase / Decrease torso twisting ranges.
...Increase / Decrease the speed of torso twist.
...Increase / Decrease variants acceleration / deceleration rate.
...Increase / Decrease turning rate of variants.
...Increase / Decrease heat dissipation rate of variants. (unlike the other points listed...this one was not part of the Awesome make over).

As an example, in the case of the RVN-3L I would go the 'decrease torso twisting both range and speed as well as the turning rate' route, and in doing so it would force any 3L that tries to skirmish into taking a more direct, straight line approach, to fire its weapons instead of being able to incessantly circle around its pray in such a tight radius, thereby making it easier for enemy mechs to line up shots on RVN-3L that try to attack instead of scout. At the same time, give the RVN-2X and RVN-4X buffs any or all the points made above to make them more attractive.

^^^^ For the record the above example is what I 'think' will actually end up happening, or something VERY similar ^^^^^

While I doubt the devs would do it, they could also modify the amount, placement, and types of hard points for each variant as well. An example of this done to a RVN-3L could include reducing both the number of energy and missile hard points by one each and add a pair of ballistic hard points instead.

[Armando]

StalaggtIKE, on 28 February 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

Only because you asked nicely. : CDA-3M. Recently I've dropped a mlaser for TAG, to help the team out. But it works well either way.





I mostly agreed with you up to this point. For Assaults, the AS7-K and RS are pretty bad. On the surface they may appear fine, however their flaws begin to show once you try to come up with viable builds. The K has limited hardpoints thus weak to crits. The RS have a hard time making use of his hardpoints, ultimately settling as a slow Awesome imitator or a weaker brawler than the D-DC. The AS7-D is basically a clone of the D-DC with one less missile hardpoint and two energy slots on CT for mlasers, yet the D-DC remains as the better brawler of the two. This really leaves us with the D and D-DC as good Atlas mechs. Being that ECM is a great brawling tool, the D-DC was the "worst" mech to give it to. As for Cicadas, except for the 3M, I don't really care for the rest either. This new hero appears to have missile hardpoints, so it may become a good light hunter.

I will give your version of the CDA-3M a solid 25 match test run (once I wake up), who knows....I might change my mind about the Cicada being complete rubbish.

As for the AS7-K and AS7-RS mechs, when compared to the AS7-D or AS7-D-DC they make for lousy brawlers. They both however make good fire support mechs, and while it is true the Awesome can do most of what the "K" and "RS" variants can there is one major exeception, there isn't a single Awesome that can carry a AC/20 or Gauss as there are no ballistic hard points on any Awesome.

Also, don't forget that while neither can equip ECM...the AS7-K can sport dual AMS (while AMS is not as good overall as ECM....a mech like the "K" with two of them do work quite well against LRMs).

So its got that going for it....which is nice (said in my best Carl Spackler voice)

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

CPLT-A1s and AS7-D-DC (if it has a brawler load out) have a weapons range of 270M. That means there is a 'dead zone' between 200M and 270M where they (if side by side) can fire on you before you can target them.

A Splatcat is highly unlikely to fire between 200-270m. You should try using srms. Not so easy to hit much over 100m. Their problem is speed. With a moving speed around 86kph, they are a real terror in the right hands.

[Ghostbear Gurdel]

Again! Please fix the damned ECM. Got swarmed by a murder of Ravens again... It is getting to the point where I WILL NOT play alone. The only reason I still play is to hang out with my buddies across the country. ECM is making it a chore to enjoy this game. Many people have given SEVERAL ideas in various threads to fix the problem, but we go unheard.

[Inertiaman]

Lykaon giving it both barrels in GD. Props directly to his post!

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1979382

Lykaon, on 01 March 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

I have been working diligently with testing ECM as this is still a beta product.
My findings thus far are heavily in the anti ECM camp.Well technically heavily against the current ECM feature we have in game now.

I will go on to explain why I have come to this conclusion but be warned it will be a long post.

For starters the Guardian ECM system as it is represented in MWo is more closely representative of a combination of technologies available in later periods of the table top game. Specificly Angel ECM and Capellan Stealth Armor systems.Needless to say to gain this degree of stealth and ECM protection one needs to spend a great deal more then 2 crits,1.5 tons and 400k C-bills.Yet here in this game we get the whole package for a very small investment of crits,tonnage and c-bills.

To put it into perspective Imagine if PGI simply decided that PPCs should also incorperate the heat application effect of a flamer (but much more pronounced) as well as the effects of a mech tazer ( also a later period technology in table top) Just imagine the outcry if this PPC duplicated the possitive effects of three different weapons systems and presented none of the drawbacks.This weapon would be the go to weapon of the entire game because it gives and gives and requires nearly nothing in return.Players would complain that this super PPC was broken over powered and poorly thought out. And they would be correct.

Next I will point out how ECM has far reaching impact on nearly every aspect of the game's mechanics and meta game.

ECM being limited to specific chassis and being a highly desireable feature as negativley impacted mech diversity.This is most clearly seen when looking at light mech chassis.The Raven 3L has effectivley obsoleted every other light mech and turned all of them into second teir machines.There is exactally one game mechanic supported reason to not take a Raven 3L over any other light mech.The 3L does not have Jump Jets.That is the one and only reason for selecting a different chassis.
To a lesser degree all other chassis are being limited by ECM selection.The moment ECM becomes a priority feature,mech diversity is thrown away.

ECM has to some degree dictated not only what chassis we will use but also what equipment we will use on them.Many players shy away from LRMs and Streaks specificly because of ECM.Others select streaks specificly because their mech does have ECM.Conversley anyone wishing to have some ability to mitigate enemy ECM is highly motivated to include TAG or PPCs.The inclusion of AMS has greatly diminished because of ECM use.Why equip AMS if fewer players use LRMs and/or ECM is a far superior countermeasure for missile fire?
ECM has diminished diversity of mech chassis and mech builds.

ECM has also effected tactical choices.ECM influences where we move,do we stick close to that friendly ECM or manuver freely? If you are the ECM do you manuver to cover your friendlies? When selecting target priority do you fire on ECM mechs first? how do you prioritize targets?
ECM to some degree effects What chassis we use,what we put in it,where we manuver that chassis on a battlefield and what we shoot first.

ECM impacts the meta game and strategy, for example when assembling a competitive 8 man team you must concider ECM.Do we have enough ECM to retain ECM dominance? Do we have enough counters to ECM to prevent enemy dominance?The end results of this effect of ECM is why we see so many 8 man teams with 5-6 ECM mechs and a very small number of non ECM "ideal" mech builds like splattercats or poptartaphracts as the remaining handful of non ECM team members.

With this degree of influence ECM at least to me is showing signs of being far to powerful for a support system.The game is not ECM warrior online yet ECM does influence nearly every aspect of game play.

Next up,ECM is disproportionatly effective vs new players and PuG players than premade/veteran players.
Most of the effects of ECM can be mitigated by consistant and clear communication coupled with the experience of diciplined fire and marksmanship.Seeing how only premades use VOIP programs only premades have the benifit of speedy communications.PuGs do not have the ability to efficently relay important intel that is suppressed by ECM preventing passive transmition of information.Where are my team mates? Where are the "cloaked" enemy? A Pug player has no means of communicating this other than stopping to type and essentially get killed for trying.
ECM is detrimental to the game by increasing an already steep learning curve for new players coupled with being a highly effective force multiplyer for the players that least require yet another advantage.

Next point.

ECM is a giant square peg the development team is trying to force into the round hole of mechwarrior online.
First the development team discovered that ECM was to potent to allow on any and all chassis.They decided to limit ECM to specific chassis as a means of limiting ECM's negative impact on the game.The development team was at this time concerned that ECM was to powerful yet instead of changing ECM features they decided to alter a core mechanic of the game.ECM is the only item in game currently that requires a specific chassis.

Next ECM was still deemed to potent and TAG was granted additional features to mitigate ECM.I say mitigate and not counter because TAG does not counter ECM it mitigates some of it's effects but not all.TAG was altered to suit ECM.ECM was not altered at all.

Later it is decided that the added features to TAG are still not as effective as desired so TAG has it's range buffed up to 750m from 450m.Still ECM is untouched.We now have three alterations to other game features to suit ECM while ECM remained unaltered.

The next alteration actually does effect ECM.ECM counter mode is changed to effect only the closest ECM set to disrupt from the countering ECM.We are now at 4 alterations to ECM.

Yet still ECM seems to be potent enough by the development team that additional features are planned to mitigate ECM effects.We now get modules to mitigate ECM sensor jamming effects.These modules are underwhelming at best adding a 50m distance to detection ranges 250m from 200m.Not to mention that modules are essentially end game items only available to players who grind very large amounts of C-bills and GXP or have a willingness to pay for a counter measure with real money to convert XP to GXP.
In a very basic way having end game content as a means of mitigating a basic tier item is gating new players.Sorry newb no anti ECm modules for you until you grind for the unlock or pony up some cash to buy the GXP for the unlock!

5 alteration to the game to try and cram ECM into the game and by and large ECM has not been changed to suit the game.The game is changed to suit ECM.

Then we have yet another additional feature added to mitigate ECM features.PPCs are given disruptive abilities to counter ECM.
6 alterations now.I've been in beta since June 2012 and ECM has seen more changes done to it in the short time it has been in game than nearly any other system in game.Only LRMs come to mind as a feature seeing more attention spent.
How much effort has been spent to alter the rest of the game to suit ECM instead of altering just ECM?

Next point: ECM makes a complete mockery of the design pillars set by the dev team as the basis for this games future development.

One of the important design pillars is Information Warfare,This would be the control of or use of information to the detriment of the enemy or benifit of your team.
This used to mean intelligent manuvers and effective use of recon ellements.Information warfare was all about strategic application of recon and the tactical manuvering needed to prevent Information loss or aquisition of info.
Now in the post ECM game Information warfare is summed up with...

Bring more ECM always.

ECM has removed the thinking from information warfare.Now we can just stack up as much ECM as possible and have the ECM do all the "work" for us.

Then there are the other negative Effects of ECM.

ECM has allowed for the proliferation of "cheese" builds like 6xSRM6 cats or 2XAC20 K2s.Previous to ECM these mechs had a glaring weakness.They have a very short engagment range.Now in the post ECM game they have a much improved chance of avoiding detection allowing for these mechs to close range without being noticed or fired upon.
Add to this that the paper to this rock the LRM has been hampered by ECM and as a result fallen into disuse with many of the players.With improved stealth options provided by ECM and a lack of long range firepower to apply agaisnt them these brawler brutes have become a dime a dozen.No longer a nitche they are now a staple.

So there you have it an incomplete non comprehencive list of why I have found ECM as it is currently implimented to be a negative feature.

Edited by Inertiaman, 01 March 2013 - 03:13 AM.

[Twisted Power]

Inertiaman, on 01 March 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

Lykaon giving it both barrels in GD. Props directly to his post!

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1979382

That is a good post.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

It's long but generally correct. I thought it was a bit exaggerated RE: 5-6 ecm mechs in an 8-man. I've only ever seen that once. I think the 2nd last paragraph sums up the major issue. The synergy ecm creates when combined with Streaks and SRMs in particular is overwhelming. In a pre-made you can really stack the odds in your favour. In a pug you very little hope at all and it's for that reason alone that the game is being eroded. It's an unbelievable ****-up and a shame cause this game could be great.

[rmz]

Yes, the game is balanced enough. I have just been proved that when 3 ECM ravens and an ECM commando killed my whole team. It was rather quick too. It seems that if you run PUGs mostly then your only option is either to run light ECM or cross your fingers and hold your breath every time you get into a game that someone else does run ECM. That IS fun...

[Inertiaman]

Must confess I was wondering how long this thread was capable of page 2 for.

39 hours. About 38.5 hours longer than it took to design ECM.

[Alilua]

[StalaggtIKE]

Since we're teetering on a thin line between f2p and p2w, how about make ECM a consumable module. Make it available to any mech. After all it's supposedly balanced with only a few complaining vocal minorities.

[ICEFANG13]

For 2000 MC...

[Haitchpeasauce]

@Armando: A man named Wilbur Shakesman once wrote, while living in a hamlet:

"... brevity is the soul of wit ..."

For the sake of the mature discussion you want so badly, it behoves you consider this carefully.

[LackofCertainty]

Armando, you mention that the Atlas K variant can run 2 ams's, but also admit that ECM is a better LRM counter. That is a major problem. AMS's weigh .5 tons, +at least 1 extra ton for ammo. So your dual AMS's + ammo weigh more than an ECM, take up more space, are worse at stopping LRM's, have limited ammo, must be mounted in specific locations, and also don't provide any of the slew of extra benefits that ECM does.

Doesn't that sound a little messed up to you?


With ECM as it is currently implemented, there is no reason to run an Atlas D. By running an Atlas D instead of a D-DC you lose 1 LT missile hardpoint, an extra module slot, and ECM capability which are together worth far more than 2 CT energy slots. In fact, I will go the next step and say that there is also no reason to run any other Atlas variant instead of the D-DC. The D-DC has the best hardpoint setup of any atlas, and even before ECM was added it was the most popular variant. The K or RS variants are the ones that actually need buffing, not the D-DC. As the game is, you see mainly D-DC and D atlases, and the D's only get used because people have the founders for it.

If the dev team was specifically picking which variants got ECM in order to balance them against other mechs, they did a **** poor job. At least 3 of the ECM mechs were given ecm on what was their strongest variant anyway. (commando, atlas, and raven)


Edit: Had to add the module slot advantage the D-DC gets as well, since consumables are likely to make module slots even more valuable now.

Edited by LackofCertainty, 05 March 2013 - 01:07 AM.

[Twisted Power]

Well I agree that if they really say ECM is so balanced you might as well let every mech get it.

They have no reason to keep it on those mechs that have it now. They said they don't have to follow lore in regards to ECM that is why ECM does not function the way it does in table top. So lets go with that.

You can't say "ECM can be what we want we are not going to follow lore" and then say we only are giving ECM to these mechs because of lore.

Edit: I just thought about it. You CAN say it... but you would be wrong.

Edited by Twisted Power, 05 March 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Twisted Power, on 05 March 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

Well I agree that if they really say ECM is so balanced you might as well let every mech get it.

They have no reason to keep it on those mechs that have it now. They said they don't have to follow lore in regards to ECM that is why ECM does not function the way it does in table top. So lets go with that.

You can't say "ECM can be what we want we are not going to follow lore" and then say we only are giving ECM to these mechs because of lore.

Edit: I just thought about it. You CAN say it... but you would be wrong.

Exactly. With these new consumable modules on the horizon, who will benefit the most? The same ECM mechs as before. Most already have the highest module count of their variants, so they have room to sacrifice for coolant flush or air strike. Also due to the stealth bubble of ECM, it will be harder to zero in on their location for a successful artillery strike.

[Twisted Power]

StalaggtIKE, on 05 March 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

Exactly. With these new consumable modules on the horizon, who will benefit the most? The same ECM mechs as before. Most already have the highest module count of their variants, so they have room to sacrifice for coolant flush or air strike. Also due to the stealth bubble of ECM, it will be harder to zero in on their location for a successful artillery strike.

Assuming I log in (I havn't for the last week) I know I have the highest modules on my ECM cheese mechs.