221 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

Again, I think ECM could be fixed by doing two things:
Buffing Beagle Active Probe to where it can see anything in a radius around it, including 'Mechs behind mountains or buildings normal sensor cannot see;

moving any sort of missile defeat from ECM to a third Ghost target mode, which is countered by Beagle Active Probe.

That way we get 1.5 ton pieces of equipment that can work against each other, yet defeat each other depending on usage...

ECM hides enemy movement from Beagle; Beagle denies ECM's disruption of missile locks.

I also believe the complete information denial over entire grid squares is too much, and allowing targets in sensor range to be targeted, but not identified would go a long ways to qualm complaints about ECM, and ECM's third mode would still provide protection against missiles, but also be counter-able by a 1.5 ton piece of equipment, instead of a 7 ton PPC.

Edited by DocBach, 28 February 2013 - 08:03 AM.

[Inertiaman]

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

I

If I was going to make a change, it would not be to ECM specifically

A far more human post.

The trouble with changing yet more hardpoints to reduce the effectiveness of ECM mechs - is that you're just not getting to the root of the problem. If you can agree that the 3L is op, then changing the 3L rather than changing the ECM really limits the light mechs you can pump out in future. They'll all have to skirt the same issue.

Edited by Inertiaman, 28 February 2013 - 08:05 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

*snippet*

If a D-DC and A1 are:

• standing side-by-side
  
• at an optimal distance thus not disrupting your sensors

then yeah, in that context you should go for the A1 first. An ideal scenario.

But as Flapdrol has stated, comparing ECM to a cheese-build, is a bad comparison. This doesn't change the fact that ECM is a Splatcat's enabler. Without ECM a Splatcat would be sighted and confirmed out from 800m and neutralized by LRM.

Brown Hornet, on 28 February 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

Armando. We (I think I can speak for some of the sane people here) do not think ECM mechs are the most powerful mechs in the game. You are a late-comer to a discussion that has been going on from the first instance. The people commenting about ECM here know exactly how it works. There's no need to explain it like we're all amateurs and are unaware of just how balanced it really is. I am actually poking fun at you because you seem very serious and you're presenting as an easy target. I apologise. It's unnecessary and childish.

Well said.

[Armando]

Brown Hornet, on 28 February 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

Armando. We (I think I can speak for some of the sane people here) do not think ECM mechs are the most powerful mechs in the game. You are a late-comer to a discussion that has been going on from the first instance. The people commenting about ECM here know exactly how it works. There's no need to explain it like we're all amateurs and are unaware of just how balanced it really is. I am actually poking fun at you because you seem very serious and you're presenting as an easy target. I apologise. It's unnecessary and childish.

Fair enough. :-)

I hope you know that my 'rants' are more directed at the "OMG ECM is the most OP thing in the game" (its not), and the "ECM=God MODE" (its not) crowd, and NOT to the folks that want ECM to be tweaked / tuned to be less influential in determining the outcome of a pug match (Like most, I too think ECM does need changes...even after the range update and PPC disable for 4 seconds patch). ECM is not 'right', but it is (and hopefully will continue to get) better than before.

As for 8 vs 8...right now, ECM is great just as is, because it seems that most who play in those brackets are more seasoned and it (at least IMO) makes the 8 vs 8s more of a chess match (and I like that). Again even in 8 vs 8 the RVN-3L need a tweak IMO.

[StalaggtIKE]

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

I agree that a cheesy splatcat or dual AC/20 K2 does NOT make ECM OK!!!! What does make it ok (or at least acceptable compared to the alternatives) is it lets the mechs that can equip them do their jobs (scouts can scout, and brawlers can get into brawling range). That is my concern to making ECM changes...I never want to go back to the days when brawlers are dead before they can see the enemy...never. Please for the love of all that is good in the world let's never EVER go back to that. If you played a brawler per ECM you know what "Willis is talkin bout", if you know what I mean. If I was going to make a change, it would not be to ECM specifically, but I would change the hard points of the ECM RVN-3L to be less....well, devastating...when compared to other scouts. The way the 3L plays is less like a scout and more like a skirmisher, and if you are going to give ECM to a skirmisher I see no reason NOT to give it to the Jenner (although I think that would make matters worse, not better). Drop a laser and a missile hard points and add a pair of ballistics, something, anything to make the RVN-3L less of a 'beast mode' mech.

My D-DC and 4SP were doing fine prior to ECM. I just had to work a bit to get in close. Once in close I had the advantage, the LRM boats were now disadvantaged. That's how balance is supposed to work.

[Inertiaman]

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

(if it has a brawler load out)

This is kinda where such situational comparisons fall down really sharply. Does the DC have ecm? (lol)

Just out of interest - and answer honestly - do you habitually look back at spawn to count your team ECMs?

StalaggtIKE, on 28 February 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

My D-DC and 4SP were doing fine prior to ECM. I just had to work a bit to get in close. Once in close I had the advantage, the LRM boats were now disadvantaged. That's how balance is supposed to work.

Indeed. And it's similar around ppc'ing light mechs to shutdown. At 150kph you're getting 1-2 shots on that raven before he's under you. I've got no problem with that.

[StalaggtIKE]

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

...even after the range update and PPC disable for 4 seconds patch). ECM is not 'right', but it is (and hopefully will continue to get) better than before.

I think the recent changes only made the situation worse. It further focuses on ECM. All strategies must consider the existence and/or neutralizing of ECM. Before you even drop into a game, you and/or an ally, must construct your build in anticipation of ECM. Someone must have TAG, PPC, or modules. If not then, a build consisting of lasers,ballistics and SRM only, as LRM and SSRM or likely to be dead weight. Not that skill and strategy no longer have a big part in deciding the victor of a battle, but instead mech build has become too much of a deciding factor. The game is becoming more and more of an arms race.

All this binary balance needs to be addressed, starting with LRM and SSRM. Perhaps a simple buff towards AMS would be sufficient. Finally, ECM needs to be toned back. I would like to see the whole soft counter of PPC removed and instead made into a proper EMP (example creating temporary HUD distortion).

Edit: Diversity is being removed as well. Since the game is an arms race, I select tools and weapons based on what my enemy may have, not necessarily on what I would like to use. Instead things are made to work a certain way to coerce you in using them. For instance, if it wasn't for ECM's nonsense, no one would take TAG. I instead would like the devs to balance the game in a way that would have me consider taking TAG after based on its pros and cons, despite the existence of ECM.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 28 February 2013 - 08:40 AM.

[Armando]

Inertiaman, on 28 February 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

This is kinda where such situational comparisons fall down really sharply. Does the DC have ecm? (lol)

Just out of interest - and answer honestly - do you habitually look back at spawn to count your team ECMs?

Indeed. And it's similar around ppc'ing light mechs to shutdown. At 150kph you're getting 1-2 shots on that raven before he's under you. I've got no problem with that.

While I do look at my teammates in pugs / 4 mans, I don't look specifically to see how many have ECM. It really doesn't matter to me at ALL.

I agree that a missile boat would be lucky to get 2 shots off before most scouts can cover the ground and get inside minimum range...but all it takes was one volley to hit, for the scout to end up face first in the dirt.

As for the D-DC, being dead before I could see the enemy didn't happen every match, but it did happen often enough (and a bad enough experience when it did happen) to make me appreciate ECM in my D-DC and having a D-DC with ECM with me when I am in my other brawler mechs. Worst experience I ever had in the game was being dead before I could see the enemy, it made me want to uninstall the game the first time it happened (although to be fair, I wasn't as good a using cover and torso twisting to spread out the damage as I am today).

Could you image trying to play a Brawler without ECM on the Alpine map??? Please, no...just no!

[Inertiaman]

Do you accept the further point that if a whole cloud of mech hardpoints, weapon values and other variables have to be adjusted to mitigate the impact of ECM, that it might just be better to adjust ECM?

I'm entirely with you that tactics can be adjusted to work around it btw - and do in every game - but the work around is a bloody long walk at the moment...

[Armando]

Inertiaman, on 28 February 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

A far more human post.

The trouble with changing yet more hardpoints to reduce the effectiveness of ECM mechs - is that you're just not getting to the root of the problem. If you can agree that the 3L is op, then changing the 3L rather than changing the ECM really limits the light mechs you can pump out in future. They'll all have to skirt the same issue.

I am an ******* to be sure, but I'm not THAT big of an ******* (at least I hope not...who knows, maybe I am).

As for future ECM mechs, as long as they limit it to scouts and brawlers I am all for it. You can still pump out new ECM scouts as long as the hard points are not as powerful as the RVN-3L (and yes, while the 3L is powerful....I can 'cope' with it as is, but a small tweak to 'tone them down' would be nice).

[Inertiaman]

Fair enough, although speaking purely for myself I'd prefer more diversity and allow weight and heat to be the barriers to OP lights. Not an artificially imposed hardpoint nerf across the board.

[Armando]

Inertiaman, on 28 February 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Do you accept the further point that if a whole cloud of mech hardpoints, weapon values and other variables have to be adjusted to mitigate the impact of ECM, that it might just be better to adjust ECM?

I'm entirely with you that tactics can be adjusted to work around it btw - and do in every game - but the work around is a bloody long walk at the moment...

First, they have been (and will likely continue to make) adjustments to ECM.

Second, while the RVN-3L is a PITA, I can (and do) cope with them fine as is. My only point about the RVN-3L commit was that if a change is to be made I would prefer they change the hard points on one mech (if they make any changes). While I don't think any changes are 'needed', I you wouldn't hear me complain if they toned down the 3Ls.

I hope that make my position a little more clear. :-)

[Inertiaman]

All apart from the changes they've made to ECM. Missed those.

[StalaggtIKE]

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Could you image trying to play a Brawler without ECM on the Alpine map??? Please, no...just no!

Again my D-DC does fine, even in Alpine. I've included AMS and 2xU/AC5 so I am not completely at a disadvantage from long range. The issue is when your brawler is overly specialized.

As said here:

Paul Inoye said:

If you plan on taking specialized Mech into a match, plan wisely and have alternate weapon systems that will help you with mid to long-range combat.

The issue is when you bring a specialized mech into an unfavorable situation. Fact is you should suffer the consequences.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 28 February 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[RANSARI]

Just gonna add my two cents here on the present state of ECMWO.

I don't know about you fellas, but recently I have been seeing a LOT of camping. I am talking about parking your rear near your base or near the line of contact, easing back on the throttle, and just absolutely CHILLING underneath the ECM bubble lobbing LRMs or SNIPING until the cows come home. These craven fools will literally not move out to engage unless they are being sufficiently engaged, have the advantage in numbers to roll you over, or a lone dumb PUG steps out into the open by his lonesome Leeroy Jenkins self to fight them head on.

This. is. INFURIATING. I came for WAAGGHHH! not this silliness.

It is a valid strategem no doubt when you have ECM superiority, but for the group of poor fools rounded up by shoddy ELO to fight these craven sods...it's bad for them. Most of the guys are looking to fight the chivalrous way and make some money because you obviously don't make a lot of money when you cap.

I go into every match with the intent to murder every last S-O-B on the other team as tribute for the Mech God and the C-Bill God, instead I have been left sorely disappointed. I have been forced to play to WIN by any means necessary. Before it would be blasphemy to think I would win by a cop out CAP, but that was then, this is now.

I am older, saltier, and losing my religion in PGI (that Cicada-5X stunt is just...) since I signed on in December. Even in an Assault mech (ECM'd or not), I will straight up bypass your entire LRM / Sniper battery with my broz following me and head straight for your cap. The only warning I will give you is, "Come fight us or we will cap yo' XXX." If you hear this ultimatum, you better come for you comeuppance right quick, or we will win anyways.

That said, strategy is strategy. If it gets you a win, so be it. If camping is what you're gonna do, camp away. Me? I want to keep shoveling people's faces into their junk and make them rue the day they stepped into my crosshairs with their exploit (or shoddy) builds. If you deny this singular joy to me, well, I'll just cap you.

[StalaggtIKE]

Inertiaman, on 28 February 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

All apart from the changes they've made to ECM. Missed those.

Yeah. Everything, instead, is being changed to fit with ECM.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 28 February 2013 - 10:01 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

Ding, ding, ding, gutterman....tell StUffz what he has won...

StUffz you have answer the question correctly, you have won a greater understand of prioritizing what targets are powerful (CPTL-A1) and which are not so much (ECM carrying AS7-D-DC). Your prize... you will now live longer in battles because you 'get it' and know that the splat cat that hits for 90 per alpha is a much, Much, MUCH more powerful enemy that must be given priority over ALL OTHER mechs, including ALL ECM mechs.

This understanding that ECM mechs are not overpowered, or even 'powerful' when compared to a REALLY overpowered mech is a step I wish many in this tread would take.

CPLT-A1s, HBK-4SP, Zombie Cents are all examples of what it means to be truly 'overpowered'...dealing with ECM is child’s play easy in comparison
______________________________

Still, you didn't try to answer my first question..."Why do the mechs that can carry ECM, get to carry ECM?"

The mechs that can carry ECM, I think, we're hit on a dart board. EXCEPT the Raven-3L, none of the chassis that can use it, use it in lore, I agree, this is fine for balance. Are you gonna tell me that the D-DC, the 2D, 5D, 3M, are the worst in their chassis and need the ECM to balance them? D-DC, excellent mech, most missiles, used a lot before ECM. 2D, considered the best Commando, use a lot before ECM, even against Jenner-Ds. 5D, the best Spider by far, was introduced with ECM, makes sense now? The 5K with its nearly worthless ballistics, and 5V, who can't pack enough weapons to matter, gave it to the 5D, who has the weaponry and arm needed to be acceptable. 3M is the worst of the ECM mechs, and it happens to be moderately good at carrying a single ballistic and moving at a good speed. Because of the weight of ballistic jump (1.5->7), its the only ECM mech that needs to make a choice in whether it will bring ECM, or decrease engine size, or bring a ballistic worth bringing. All aside, the 3C is far worse.

You say what BAP does, and say it wrong? Do you ever play a LRM boat? I don't, and I think they need some attention. Isn't it wrong that LRMs are pathetic in small amounts? Ignorable to light mechs? Unless you have 20-25+ you can just ignore them, but when they blot out the sky, they can instantly kill you? That's wrong. ECM counters it, so half the time you're dandy, and half the time you're dead? That's wrong. TAG was made to be a spotter's tool, and now because it was buffed, is used a lot more often on LRM units? That's wrong. I never see light mechs with TAG anymore. Why do they want to make the game like this? Counter land? Why should millions of C-bills and ten thousands of GXP be needed to counter ECM? Why should ECM be the only counter to ECM? Isn't it wrong that X (extremely common) generic Raven-3Ls, will lose to X+1, because they are out ECMed, and lose 40% of their firepower. Isn't it wrong that SSRMs are so much better than SRMs, for half a ton? And that ECM, that should have no effect on SSRMs, affects them?

I mean, there is a lot wrong in my mind. Do I need to adapt, L2P? No, I'm an amazing pilot, I know it, and I can beat ECM mechs, and Raven-3Ls, who take normal damage (ie lagless). Does that mean ECM is fair for its slots and weight? Why does every mech that can, does use ECM, how many mechs do you think we would see with ECM, if every mech could use it? Because based on what I've seen, honestly 5 mechs of 16*750 games, 2 said they didn't have the funds, and 1 was a friend who forgot to move it. I will count them too. .0416% of mechs that can, are not using it, for me personally. 99.96933% are, that looks really messed up to me.

[StalaggtIKE]

ICEFANG13, on 28 February 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

The mechs that can carry ECM, I think, we're hit on a dart board. EXCEPT the Raven-3L, none of the chassis that can use it, use it in lore, I agree, this is fine for balance. Are you gonna tell me that the D-DC, the 2D, 5D, 3M, are the worst in their chassis and need the ECM to balance them? D-DC, excellent mech, most missiles, used a lot before ECM. 2D, considered the best Commando, use a lot before ECM, even against Jenner-Ds. 5D, the best Spider by far, was introduced with ECM, makes sense now? The 5K with its nearly worthless ballistics, and 5V, who can't pack enough weapons to matter, gave it to the 5D, who has the weaponry and arm needed to be acceptable. 3M is the worst of the ECM mechs, and it happens to be moderately good at carrying a single ballistic and moving at a good speed. Because of the weight of ballistic jump (1.5->7), its the only ECM mech that needs to make a choice in whether it will bring ECM, or decrease engine size, or bring a ballistic worth bringing. All aside, the 3C is far worse.

You say what BAP does, and say it wrong? Do you ever play a LRM boat? I don't, and I think they need some attention. Isn't it wrong that LRMs are pathetic in small amounts? Ignorable to light mechs? Unless you have 20-25+ you can just ignore them, but when they blot out the sky, they can instantly kill you? That's wrong. ECM counters it, so half the time you're dandy, and half the time you're dead? That's wrong. TAG was made to be a spotter's tool, and now because it was buffed, is used a lot more often on LRM units? That's wrong. I never see light mechs with TAG anymore. Why do they want to make the game like this? Counter land? Why should millions of C-bills and ten thousands of GXP be needed to counter ECM? Why should ECM be the only counter to ECM? Isn't it wrong that X (extremely common) generic Raven-3Ls, will lose to X+1, because they are out ECMed, and lose 40% of their firepower. Isn't it wrong that SSRMs are so much better than SRMs, for half a ton? And that ECM, that should have no effect on SSRMs, affects them?

I mean, there is a lot wrong in my mind. Do I need to adapt, L2P? No, I'm an amazing pilot, I know it, and I can beat ECM mechs, and Raven-3Ls, who take normal damage (ie lagless). Does that mean ECM is fair for its slots and weight? Why does every mech that can, does use ECM, how many mechs do you think we would see with ECM, if every mech could use it? Because based on what I've seen, honestly 5 mechs of 16*750 games, 2 said they didn't have the funds, and 1 was a friend who forgot to move it. I will count them too. .0416% of mechs that can, are not using it, for me personally. 99.96933% are, that looks really messed up to me.

Agreed. It's more about what you bring, than how you use it. I believe, in regards to the state of game balance, the proper term is FUBAR.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 28 February 2013 - 09:52 AM.

[Twisted Power]

Armando, I agree with you, that you can play with ECM currently and play plenty of mechs that do not use ECM and are countered by it as well (I have a missile boat or 2). But, do you really think that game play in its current state is balanced? Because I totally agree that the game is playable but it is not well rounded and that ECM is the cause.

It is not like ECM makes this game impossible or even hard to play. It does not.

I just think that it makes the game limiting, annoying, and less diverse. That is the problem I have with ECM.

Edited by Twisted Power, 28 February 2013 - 11:01 AM.

[Armando]

Twisted Power, on 28 February 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

Armando, I agree with you, that you can play with ECM currently and play plenty of mechs that do not use ECM and are countered by it well (I have a missile boat or 2). But, do you really think that game play in its current state is balanced? Because I totally agree that the game is playable but it is not well rounded.

It is not like ECM makes this game impossible or even hard to play. It does not.

I just think that it makes the game limiting, annoying, and less diverse. That is the problem I have with ECM.

Do I really think that game play in its current state is balanced?

Great question...

That depends on what you mean by 'balanced' I suppose.

If you are talking about balance from a 'weight class' standpoint (lights vs mediums vs heavy vs assaults), then yes I think that the 'weight classes' are balanced as they are all well represented, each weight class has 'advantages', and each weight class has 'disadvantages' (lights don't pack much punch but are fast as the summer solstice day is long, assaults can have brutal alpha strikes but would get lapped by a tortoise in a foot race, while the mediums / heavy mechs are 'in between' in terms of speed/alpha/armor).

If you are talking about balance from a 'does each chassis have a viable variant' standpoint, then I would say 'for the most part'. That is to say, 13 of the 14 chassis have at least one viable variant (IMO). The only exception (the 14th chassis if you will) is oddly enough a chassis that has an ECM variant (the CICADA). Try as I might, I just haven't found a really solid build for any CICADA variant, even the one that has ECM (that is not to say there are none...only that I have yet to find one that "I" like...any suggestions for me, I am all ears).

If you are talking about balance from a 'are ALL the variants viable/unique' standpoint, then I would say...right now, today....NO!!! The Raven has the 3L, the Spider has the 5D, the Jenner has the D, the Commando has the 2D, etc. The only chassis that has a viable/unique build for EVERY ONE of its variants are the Catapults, Cataphracts, and with the most recent tweaks...the Awesome. That said, if the Devs make good with tweaking the other Chassis variants to be more viable/unique like they did for the Awesome than 'maybe' we 'could' one day have every variant for all chassis be viable/unique (but we are NOT there yet).
_____________________________________________________________________________________

I am holding out hope that in the polishing up of variants for each chassis (making each unique...like they did recently with the Awesome) they make modifications so that taking a ECM variant of a chassis becomes choice that has some consequences are repercussions. Right now the ECM variant Raven, Spider, and Commando have the 'best of everything' so to speak (those variants already 'outclass' its counterparts), but that doesn't mean this will ALWAYS be the case (come on devs...don't let me down here).

Side note: As for the Atlas...any Atlas variant they gave ECM to would become 'the' Atlas as all the variants are viable for different/various reasons (IMO). Then we have the Cicada...all the variants are 'balls' IMO, even the ECM variant. (sorry Cicada fans, just the way I feel about it....as said before I am willing to try new load outs for the Cicada if you have one you want to send my way).

I hope that is a complete answer for you....If there is some other "balance standpoint" that I missed re-frame my prospective and I'll give you my thoughts. :-)

Edited by Armando, 28 February 2013 - 11:38 AM.