351 replies to this topic

[Philldoe]

Alpine does not ruin th effectiveness of short range builds. There are a lot of places in alpine that a short range team can post at that forces the enemy team to play by their rules. The area to the left of the low-ground base has a neat quick way to the enemy base that provides near constant cover from long range sniping.

This is a map which will force people to pay more attention to the map terrain and use it to their own advantage. Force the enemy to fight on your terms rather than terms everyone expects.

[Mercules]

Noth, on 20 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

For the longest time I ran balanced builds that were not 100% effective at long or short range. I can tell you right now that if you take that build and engage against a pure build of equal skill you will lose. I'm also adamantly against pure LRM builds.

In a vacuum, in a 1 on 1, and when the pure build is in their prime element you are 100% correct. There are 8 team members though and going 50% short and 50% long on every mech is the SAME as going 100% short and 100% long on half the mechs on your team. The only difference is that everyone can contribute no matter the range while the other team has half their mechs trying to change the format.

Pure LRM builds are the 100% effective at long range. Why do we tell them they need a couple close range weapons on them? Because something will get close and negate their ability. That doesn't apply to a 6 SRM6 mech though? Nope, carry on it is the map and devs fault. Something will stay at long range and kill an Splattapult before it can close just like something will get close to the LRM boat and kill it before it can get to range and use it's LRMs. Same thing but you advocate for one and not the other?

[Tarman]

Noth, on 20 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

There really isn't a lot of cover and most of that cover is circumvented by the height changes. ALso again long range on the other maps is not a serious disadvantage (ok pure LRM boat is), but things like the AC2 boats, GRs, LLas, PPCs can still snipe and rpetty much brawl when needed. A short range on alpine gets to hide and do nothing unless the opportunity presents itself to get close. It's not a more balanced map, it's just a long range map

I have seen what you describe, I'm simply saying I have never ever seen it work.

For the longest time I ran balanced builds that were not 100% effective at long or short range. I can tell you right now that if you take that build and engage against a pure build of equal skill you will lose. I'm also adamantly against pure LRM builds.

The map does not promote balanced builds. It promotes long ranged builds. It lacks proper cover to promote having a mixed build where you do damage as you close as a proper escort would do. Short range weapons simply cannot engage at long ranges while long range weapons can engage at short range. It leads to long range being the best to go with overall since they are not nearly as bad as people make them out to be in the other maps.

The previous dynamic pushed brawling to near-exclusivity. Support mechs with backfield loadouts were actively mocked for even showing up. And it's not this new map alone that provides the incentive for a change in build mentality, it's the fact that it's in the rotation with the brawlpit maps.

More maps is only going to broaden this effect on the overall builds no matter what the maps are. Would you like them to not work on that mentioned Canyon map because of the massive annoyance that will be for missile weapons or JJ-less chassis? You want to specialize with no drawbacks, then push for a lobby where players have the option to select a map (outside standard game rotation) and then they can specialize all they want on their cozy favourite map.

[Lyoto Machida]

MaddMaxx, on 20 February 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

Not likely. But what will be increased alot is players with Splatcats watching the Launch screen thinking to themselves:

"Please! Please! Please! Oh F$%^ Alpine. Guys I need an escort this Match!" Then the team mates responding...

LOL! Ok. LOL! We LOL! will LOL! send LOL! an LOL! escort LOL! right LOL! over LOL!... LOL! LOL! LOL! omg... newbs!

Escorts are illegal within the jurisidiction of the city of Las Vegas, as far as I know. Not sure how PGI will overcome that issue.

.

[Mr Mantis]

I have though a lot about how to nerf the splatcat without ruining the srm6 balance with other chassis. They put in big maps now it is so much harder to face hug. You can still run your short range mech but just know you will be limiting yourself greatly.

[Wintersdark]

warner2, on 19 February 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

[size=4]

I think the OP has raised a legitimate concern to be honest.

The thing is, justifying large/small maps being in a rotation where you don't know what map is coming up next by saying that [size=4]this will force everyone to take "balanced" builds, which mix short/medium/long range, is really forcing people to play in a certain way. People don't like that.

Wut? All the other maps essentially force players (if I may use your usage of "force") to equip mostly brawling builds. Small maps render most long range weaponry much less effective and as such an inefficient usage of tonnage and heat.

Why do you think most people used primarily brawling builds?

This map in the rotation means if you take a specialized build, while you'll have an advantage in some maps (nobody argues that a Splatcat has an advantage in, say, River City), you'll be disadvantaged in an open map.

Deux, on 20 February 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

They really need allow us the ability to select maps to play so we can load out properly.

We won't get the ability to cherrypick maps, at least not for a very long time. The whole point of having wildly different maps is to discourage boating, and to encourage balanced builds. Most of the maps are biased towards brawling, one is more heavily biased towards long range. Expect the next to be similarly long range focused too.

Edited by Wintersdark, 20 February 2013 - 10:57 AM.

[Helmer]

Battletech ,and by extension Mechwarrior, have always been about risk/reward, pros vs cons of different weapons and builds.
Adding in Larger maps simply, finally, points out that taking a brawler all the time could have severe consequences .


I'm all for random maps. Maybe it will cause some to diversify their load outs a bit.



Cheers.

[Teralitha]

Walter Soebchak, on 19 February 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Larger maps requiring balanced builds will pull this game back toward it's intended style. Overly specialized builds will start to fall away, and players are going to have to actually develop a solid and diversified skill set. This is a good thing pretty much anyway you slice it... unless you run an srm cat or an AC20 k2(let's be honest, does anyone mind those builds becoming obsolete?)

EDIT:

ssrm boats would be included in this as well.. and since we have ams to deal with missles... with a map like alpine, there no longer is a need for ECM to be in the game.

[Lee Ving]

Noth, on 20 February 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

There is pretty much no cover on Alpine. The cover that is there is very easily removed by LRM mechs that have the hieght advantage.

Traded ERLL with LRMs because I chose a good position that wasn't at a height disadvantage.

Even generals in the civil war had the good sense to take the high ground when possible.

[Bhael Fire]

Players really should be able to chose the map they play...OR at the very least be able to choose a mech after the map is revealed.

I mean seriously, nobody should be forced to drop into a long range map using a specialist mech. They should be able to choose which mech they bring to the party.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 20 February 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Noth]

Mercules, on 20 February 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

In a vacuum, in a 1 on 1, and when the pure build is in their prime element you are 100% correct. There are 8 team members though and going 50% short and 50% long on every mech is the SAME as going 100% short and 100% long on half the mechs on your team. The only difference is that everyone can contribute no matter the range while the other team has half their mechs trying to change the format.

Pure LRM builds are the 100% effective at long range. Why do we tell them they need a couple close range weapons on them? Because something will get close and negate their ability. That doesn't apply to a 6 SRM6 mech though? Nope, carry on it is the map and devs fault. Something will stay at long range and kill an Splattapult before it can close just like something will get close to the LRM boat and kill it before it can get to range and use it's LRMs. Same thing but you advocate for one and not the other?

I'm against pure SRM builds as well. Also a team going 100% long range (note that that does not mean all LRMs, will be 100% effective at long range and perhaps only 50% (more like 80%) effective at short range. The team that goes split 50% will only be 50% effective no matter the range. It just hurts them.

What I'm saying is, is that Long ranged setup were still very effective on the other maps. They were much more effective than the short range builds are on Alpine. I find the older maps more balanced overall (not completely balanced, the brawling does need lessened), than Alpine. In fact if they just make the older maps about as big as Alpine but keep the dernsity of cover they'd be almost perfectly balanced as far as playstyles goes.

Right now, while Alpine is refreshing it is the most boring map for me to play on no matter my load out because it does favor long range so much more than short range.

[ferranis]

Bhael Fire, on 20 February 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Players really should be able to chose the map they play...OR at the very least be able to choose a mech after the map is revealed.

I mean seriously, nobody should be forced to drop into a long range map using a specialist mech. They should be able to choose which mech they bring to the party.

Or just stop building roflmechs who are only good in 1/10 of all situations.

[Wintersdark]

Bhael Fire, on 20 February 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Players really should be able to chose the map they play...OR at the very least be able to choose a mech after the map is revealed.

I mean seriously, nobody should be forced to drop into a long range map using a specialist mech. They should be able to choose which mech they bring to the party.

Yeah, but no.

The whole point, as I said above, is to discourage those specialist mechs - as typically those specialist mechs? Ever notice how they're generally considered the OP builds?

The random maps are a balancing factor.

[Helmer]

Choosing maps or load outs based on the upcoming map only promote boating and optimized builds.

Realistically, a unit would/should know what the combat area drop would be like hours, days, weeks, maybe even months in advanced depending on the nature of the drop. Allowing for possible 'mech load out changes.
However, if we're going to go by canon, most units did not have the ability to switch 'mech load outs AT ALL, and such a process was time consuming an expensive.

However, this is a game that is essentially about big robots and having fun, so everything should be in service to those goals. Personally, I like a randomized drop, but if it was in service of the greater community to include a system for specific map drops for training or practice drops that had no effect on the Meta-Game, I would like to see that option.




Cheers.

Edited by Helmer, 20 February 2013 - 11:09 AM.
Smart people proof read BEFORE they submit. Thus I edit . Alot.

[Noth]

Wintersdark, on 20 February 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Yeah, but no.

The whole point, as I said above, is to discourage those specialist mechs - as typically those specialist mechs? Ever notice how they're generally considered the OP builds?

The random maps are a balancing factor.

Actaually all this does is discourage short range specialist mechs. Long range specialist mechs are now even more encouraged and they weren't really discouraged by the other maps either. No reason to not take a long range mech now.

[ferranis]

Noth, on 20 February 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Actaually all this does is discourage short range specialist mechs. Long range specialist mechs are now even more encouraged and they weren't really discouraged by the other maps either. No reason to not take a long range mech now.

Sometimes i wonder if we all play the same game.

[Lee Ving]

Noth, on 20 February 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Actaually all this does is discourage short range specialist mechs. Long range specialist mechs are now even more encouraged and they weren't really discouraged by the other maps either. No reason to not take a long range mech now.

LRMs have a minimum range. Gauss has a 6th of the hitpoints (3) of an AC/20 with less damage. ERLL have extra heat for nominal range increase. Etc.

There's plenty of reason ranged builds are disadvantaged on the majority of maps - because they tend to devolve into brawls.

Edit: per GR range, derp.

Edited by Lee Ving, 20 February 2013 - 11:39 AM.

[Noth]

ferranis, on 20 February 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Sometimes i wonder if we all play the same game.

Considering that all long range weapons sans a few have no minimum range and the ones that have a minumum range have relatively short ones (PPC 90 meters but still does damage under that, LRMs 180 but has a huge range and tracks) they can do remarkedly well even in close quarters. I've even recently seen more and more LRMs used at 250 or less meters as at that range they are virtually undodgeable. PPC cheese builds have never suffered on the maps. So it's ok for a short range cheese build to suffer, but a long ranged cheese build shouldn't have to suffer?

[Sean von Steinike]

Noth, on 20 February 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Actaually all this does is discourage short range specialist mechs. Long range specialist mechs are now even more encouraged and they weren't really discouraged by the other maps either. No reason to not take a long range mech now.

No reason not to take a BALANCED mech you mean.

[Taemien]

Deux, on 20 February 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

They really need allow us the ability to select maps to play so we can load out properly.

Why? Its easier to just tell you to balance your loadouts. Hey.. I just did that. Problem fixed.

Ok for everyone that's having issues with the long range map destroying your configs. You are not god's gift to MechWarrior. Your build is flawed. I have been saying this since Closed Beta. Splatcats are gimped, plain and simple. The only reason you had any sort of success with them is due to fighting PUGs and their inability to have any sort of situational awareness in cramped spaces.

Now you're fighting on a real map and are crying about it. I know this is futile to say, due to your entitlment based lifestyle, but man up and change your configs. Look at the stock mechs for influence. They normally run with balanced configs to cover two or more range brackets. I suggest you do the same.

There really is only three options here:

1. Quit (I won't miss you)
2. Lose (Which I'll gladly see you do)
3. Change (and thus be actually competitive, and then and only then will I respect you as a formidable opponent)

Ask yourselves. Do you wish to be quitters and losers? Or Formidable and adaptable opponents?