30 replies to this topic

[WinnieTheWhor]

Read the title. ECM does not make mechs untargetable.

ECM does not make you unable to target with LRMs or Streaks.

ECM does not make you disappear from the map.

ECM counters Beagle Active Probe.

That's all.

It is now Feb. 19 2013. The PPC/ERPPC and sensor changes have been released.

14,000,000 c-bills and 30,000GXP later in modules and a BAP, still can't target enemy mechs, lock on to them with missiles, view their loadouts or their damage status.

PPCs do little to assist with the INDIRECT FIRE LRMs. PPCs do not help you when you've already been caught by 4 totally invisible mechs. PPCs do not allow you to target light mechs that move faster than your mech can turn.

Despite intense community outcry and countless threads with excellent ideas to make ECM good (none of which were used or observed), ECM is still a fun-killer.

Edited by WinnieTheWhor, 19 February 2013 - 03:34 PM.

[Nonsense]

The devs know this and they chose to make it the way it is intentionally.

[WinnieTheWhor]

"This equipment onlys works against equipment that we made suck, so it sucks" is not a reason to make something so unbelievably strong that it makes games with it not fun,

[Nonsense]

I find games with ECM fun. Frequently this complaint comes from players who want to play with 100% lock on weapons. Does this describe you?

I have a suggestion:

Wait until they make their planned changes to SSRMs...then re-evaluate how much you hate/enjoy ECM.

[WinnieTheWhor]

Nonsense, on 18 February 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

I find games with ECM fun. Frequently this complaint comes from players who want to play with 100% lock on weapons. Does this describe you?

I have a suggestion:

Wait until they make their planned changes to SSRMs...then re-evaluate how much you hate/enjoy ECM.

I am an atlas pilot. I have a D-DC with no locking weapons and a K with an LRM20. In both cases, ECM is not fun to play with. I cannot tell where enemy mechs are in relation to myself, even with 14,000,000 c-bills and 30,000 GXP spent into sensors.

I cannot tell where I am being shot from. I cannot lock on with LRMs. I cannot locate my nearby teammates to reposition myself to keep from getting singled out. I cannot assist nearby teammates who have been singled out.

ECM is not fun.

[Nerf Harder]

WinnieTheWhor, on 18 February 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

I am an atlas pilot. I have a D-DC with no locking weapons and a K with an LRM20. In both cases, ECM is not fun to play with. I cannot tell where enemy mechs are in relation to myself, even with 14,000,000 c-bills and 30,000 GXP spent into sensors.

I cannot tell where I am being shot from. I cannot lock on with LRMs. I cannot locate my nearby teammates to reposition myself to keep from getting singled out. I cannot assist nearby teammates who have been singled out.

ECM is not fun.

This.

[Fuzzyhead]

+1

[WinnieTheWhor]

Bump for more exposure. ECM makes MWO not fun.

[Syllogy]

WinnieTheWhor, on 18 February 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Bump for more exposure. ECM makes MWO not fun.

Many people disagree.

[WinnieTheWhor]

Syllogy, on 18 February 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Many people disagree.

Many people choose to simply play ECM mechs because they feel weaker in mechs without them.

EDIT: I'll direct you to the post where I state I only have a single LRM on one of my mechs, and no SSRMs. In consideration of your signature.

Edited by WinnieTheWhor, 18 February 2013 - 02:07 PM.

[Dirus Nigh]

ECM out right nullifies two weapon system. LRMs and Streaks are effectively turned off on an opposing mech. This should never happen in a game. At the same time it insures that the ECM user can use that same weapon with impunity. Again this should never happen in a game.

ECM should not prevent players from targeting mechs at all ever. ECM is made for disrupting communication not turning off line of sight targeting.

Blocking players from relaying target data to team mates is perfectly fine. When with in the 180m range. Prolonging target data updates for the enemy is also fine. Even putting small delay in detection is fine. Never an out right block on targets.

By making ECM work the way it does PGI/IGP has made MWO revolve around one piece of equipment. Every other piece of equipment is being changed to compensate for an unbalanced system. This should not be happening. IT also turns the design team away from making a more dynamic game in other areas, such as environment.

With ECM working the way it does now it takes away creativity in making maps more dynamic. Effects such as forests and their density could be used to mask movement. Weather effects can be used to disrupt targeting, sensor distance, and allow BAP, C3, and modules to have a real effect on the game. With ECM the way it is now interesting effects like these would be pointless at best and make the game unplayable at worst.

ECM like every other piece of equipment should provide unique abilities that a player or team can use effectively, yet still retain limitations that effect the tactical decisions of those who use it. Right now ECM has no limitations. It is not an item used for creating a tactical style. It is a polarizing force that turns the game into have, have not, and who has more.

[WinnieTheWhor]

ECM is just like any other weapon in a battlemech. PPCs aren't exclusively better than larger lasers. AC/10s aren't exclusively better than AC/5s. Even UAC/5 isn't exclusively better than AC/5.

ECM is better than every weapon in the game, because it is exclusively better than LRMs and SSRMs.

[Eddrick]

Syllogy, on 18 February 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Many people disagree.

http://mwomercs.com/...ture-aftermath/
I'm in the middle group that doesn't care either way. I just don't allow it to cripple me.

Edited by Eddrick, 18 February 2013 - 02:41 PM.

[WinnieTheWhor]

Eddrick, on 18 February 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...ture-aftermath/
I'm in the middle group that doesn't care either way. I just don't allow it to cripple me.

Thanks for the forward to the poll.

EDIT: Match loss after match loss today because the entire enemy team is untargetable and invisible on the map. Boy is it fun to never be able to see where your opponent is coming from before you've already lost your center torso.

Edited by WinnieTheWhor, 18 February 2013 - 02:59 PM.

[cerealspiller]

Get a TAG laser. Just about all of my mechs' have them. 25 exp per mech' that is hit by LRM or SSRM fire really adds up. Regardless of ECM, the TAG is fantastic.

[Cronstintein]

TAG works well against the atlasDDC but against all the ECM lights out there? Good luck!

Currently there is practically no counter to an ECM light. SSRM used to counter lights but now that they are effectively immune...

[Volthorne]

cerealspiller, on 18 February 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

Get a TAG laser. Just about all of my mechs' have them. 25 exp per mech' that is hit by LRM or SSRM fire really adds up. Regardless of ECM, the TAG is fantastic.

Not always a viable option, especially on 'Mechs like the Catapult that have very limited defensive weaponry in the first place.

EDIT: also, everyone should check my sig, pages 85 and 136.

Edited by Volthorne, 18 February 2013 - 04:39 PM.

[focuspark]

This is kind of funny, because for ECM to work the way it does (and yes, I'm gonna bring real physics into MW:O) it would have to emit a crap ton of EM, across the spectrum to interfere the way it does with everything. That means it would look a bit like a super bright strobe light to mech sensors... and as you know, trying to see past a strobe light in a dark room is nearly impossible (remember your eyes are sensors of visible light).

Given that fact: ECM should be the freak'n opposite of stealth. It should broadcast the position of the ECM mech. Sure maybe you cannot lock the *******, but you know where he is all the time.

[Gremlich Johns]

focuspark, on 18 February 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

This is kind of funny, because for ECM to work the way it does (and yes, I'm gonna bring real physics into MW:O) it would have to emit a crap ton of EM, across the spectrum to interfere the way it does with everything. That means it would look a bit like a super bright strobe light to mech sensors... and as you know, trying to see past a strobe light in a dark room is nearly impossible (remember your eyes are sensors of visible light).

Given that fact: ECM should be the freak'n opposite of stealth. It should broadcast the position of the ECM mech. Sure maybe you cannot lock the *******, but you know where he is all the time.

and kill it with an artillery barrage...

"Mechs in open"
"Battery 6"
"HE and Willy-pete"
"Fire for effect"
"Shot"
"Shot out"

and yes, as implemented, ECM is a stealth system from the future (3067 thereabouts)

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 18 February 2013 - 05:10 PM.

[DocBach]

"splash out, repeat over"


I went to the Classic Battletech forums and asked the writers what they meant about some rules from advanced Battletech expansions that I disagreed with other posters here, over rules saying you had to be within the radius of the Guardian ECM to disrupt sensors. I asked:

"For clarifications sake, though, can anybody tell me if the line "to be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius of the ECM... LOS does not affect this radius," means ECM interference with sensor spotting rules on page 224 requires the spotting unit has to be within the 180 meter ECM bubble projected by the Guardian to be affected by ECM, or does any line of sight crossing in to it get countered by the ECM, like how ECM defeats attacks augmented by Artemis that cross through the bubble?"

They said:

"In order for ECM to have an effect in Doubleblind rules, the affected unit must be within the ECM's bubble. It is not sufficient for an ECM bubble to be in line of sight.

Note that the updated Ghost Target rules can provide for a de-facto screening operation with ECM suites.
You can find more here:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,18161.msg603814.html#msg603814"

So pretty much, the rules governing ECM say that outside of 180 meters a target is able to be targeted and tracked, but the scanning rules say that the target's identity is concealed, which could be implemented in MWO as disguising the chassis type, damage and loadout information from a targeting 'Mech. When you close into the 180 meter bubble, there is a high chance that your standard sensors will be confused and unable to lock, in which case you should be able to use other scanners (which have been announced to be released in the future as modules) to track an ECM protected enemy.

A third mode, Ghost Target mode (which the Battletech developers linked their most recent rules to), should be implemented to provide a screen against LRM's/Streaks and what not, but shouldn't provide a hard counter against them (ie lock invulnerability) for the sake of game balance. It could be implemented in several ways, the easiest to provide the lock time increase that ECM currently gives without having to be in Ghost Target mode.

A more complex way (and more interactive) to implement Ghost Targets would be for fake targets to appear on the enemy's minimaps, that are targetable that the enemy would have to cycle through to find a valid target. Like the source material describes, Beagle could help see through the ghost targets, making Beagle useful against that mode of ECM.

Edited by DocBach, 18 February 2013 - 05:07 PM.