38 replies to this topic

[hashinshin]

crits do bonus damage to internal COMPONENTS.
crits do NOT deal bonus damage to internal ARMOR

correct?

[One Medic Army]

Thirdstar, on 20 February 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

See now that's a better argument. I think I'm contractually obligated to tell you to Learn 2 Aim though, it's in the CoC.

I'm working on it, but then if I was already perfect at this game I couldn't get enjoyment out of improving at it

[Thirdstar]

hashinshin, on 20 February 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

crits do bonus damage to internal COMPONENTS.
crits do NOT deal bonus damage to internal ARMOR

correct?

There's armor HP and there's internal HP (of which component HP is a part) someone correct me if I'm wrong. Once armor HP is gone, LBX/MG will 'potentially' do increased damage to internal HP, the side effect of which is component destruction.

Hope that clears things up.

[7c Nickel]

Thirdstar, on 20 February 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

There's armor HP and there's internal HP (of which component HP is a part) someone correct me if I'm wrong. Once armor HP is gone, LBX/MG will 'potentially' do increased damage to internal HP, the side effect of which is component destruction.

Hope that clears things up.

It doesn't because that is wrong. Critical damage has no effect on the internal structure heath, only the health of the components contained within that section.

[Selfish]

Critical damage does NOT affect internal HP. It strikes at items within components, each item has its own HP and chance to be struck (determined by the proportion of critical slots used within the component). Components are containers we fill items with. They're arms, legs, torsos, and head. Critical damage can't directly hurt components. They simply allow for crits to occur when the armor is stripped from them.

The only way to "kill" someone through crits is to critically destroy an ammo ton that has enough damage to destroy the engine or head of the mech. This also applies to the Gauss rifle itself, which has a high chance to explode for 20 damage.

MG's received the real buff in this patch. Now, when massed, they are one of the most efficient crit weapons in the game. They don't deal much damage at all, but they will destroy all items within a component if given mere seconds (4x MG's). This isn't really helpful to larger mechs (though some larger mechs could harbor it), but a large utility buff to scout mechs that have a lot of ballistic slots that ordinarily sit fallow.

Edited by Selfish, 20 February 2013 - 12:42 AM.

[Vrekgar]

Thirdstar, on 20 February 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

There's armor HP and there's internal HP (of which component HP is a part) someone correct me if I'm wrong. Once armor HP is gone, LBX/MG will 'potentially' do increased damage to internal HP, the side effect of which is component destruction.

Hope that clears things up.

Exactly. LBX and MG have the advantage that they have multiple projectiles, or in MG's case it just shoots so damn fast, and each individual projectile has the chance to roll a critical. With an LBX ten on average at least one pellet will crit per shot provided all 10 land on an unarmored section. Because thats just the average your going to have some times where none crit, some where you get many crits, and rarely your going to get multiple crits on projectiles. A Perfect crit roll with a perfect shot has the potential to do 60 Damage. This will happen exceedingly rarely.

[One Medic Army]

Thirdstar, on 20 February 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

There's armor HP and there's internal HP (of which component HP is a part) someone correct me if I'm wrong. Once armor HP is gone, LBX/MG will 'potentially' do increased damage to internal HP, the side effect of which is component destruction.

Hope that clears things up.

Well not quite.
There's armor HP, there's internal HP (which is the HP of the section's internal structure), and each item has it's own HP.
When you deal damage to the internal HP of a section you have a chance to get a crit. Crits deal damage to the items contained inside that section.
Crits can deal either 1x 2x or 3x damage, some items deal more damage on crits.

Right now for instance a Machine gun deals .04 damage per shot.
If that shot hits armor it deal .04 damage.
If that shot hits internal structure it deals .04 damage and can deal a critical.
If that shot criticals it deals .5, 1.0 or 1.5 damage to a component (or is it .5 damage to 1 2 or 3 components?) inside that section.

[Fooooo]

Im pretty sure paul posted to say that the MG actually got a buff to internal dmg as well as a crit buff afaik.....or it was the patch notes maybe....

So the MG does more dmg to internal structure than it does to armor now as well as having a higher crit rate, and dmg on those crits.

Looks like I was either dreaming, or the notes have changed, or the post from paul was destroyed by fire..........

Edited by Fooooo, 20 February 2013 - 12:51 AM.

[Thirdstar]

One Medic Army, on 20 February 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

Well not quite.
There's armor HP, there's internal HP (which is the HP of the section's internal structure), and each item has it's own HP.
When you deal damage to the internal HP of a section you have a chance to get a crit. Crits deal damage to the items contained inside that section.
Crits can deal either 1x 2x or 3x damage, some items deal more damage on crits.

Right now for instance a Machine gun deals .04 damage per shot.
If that shot hits armor it deal .04 damage.
If that shot hits internal structure it deals .04 damage and can deal a critical.
If that shot criticals it deals .5, 1.0 or 1.5 damage to a component (or is it .5 damage to 1 2 or 3 components?) inside that section.

Selfish, on 20 February 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

Critical damage does NOT affect internal HP. It strikes at items within components, each item has its own HP and chance to be struck (determined by the proportion of critical slots used within the component). Components are containers we fill items with. They're arms, legs, torsos, and head. Critical damage can't directly hurt components. They simply allow for crits to occur when the armor is stripped from them.

The only way to "kill" someone through crits is to critically destroy an ammo ton that has enough damage to destroy the engine or head of the mech. This also applies to the Gauss rifle itself, which has a high chance to explode for 20 damage.

MG's received the real buff in this patch. Now, when massed, they are one of the most efficient crit weapons in the game. They don't deal much damage at all, but they will destroy all items within a component if given mere seconds (4x MG's). This isn't really helpful to larger mechs (though some larger mechs could harbor it), but a large utility buff to scout mechs that have a lot of ballistic slots that ordinarily sit fallow.

Ah-ha. Happy to be corrected.

Thought that actually makes crit 'less' attractive not more. Because as pointed out, you're not going to kill a mech through crits without ammo/guass explosions, you're better off using a weapon that does less crits but does more direct mech killing damage.

[One Medic Army]

Thirdstar, on 20 February 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:

Ah-ha. Happy to be corrected.

Thought that actually makes crit 'less' attractive not more. Because as pointed out, you're not going to kill a mech through crits without ammo/guass explosions, you're better off using a weapon that does less crits but does more direct mech killing damage.

If they ever implement engine/gyro/life support criticals I am so going to run around in a 4MG spider finishing off everyone with open CT/RCT armor, and I will laugh maniacally all the while.

[Tuku]

I still dont understand why people put value on a weapon based on what one mech can do with it in a team oriented game. I run a 2 LBX K2 with 4 medium Lasers and an xl315.....Usually I hold back a bit at the start of a match and wait for the fight to begin...maybe taking shots here and there with my Medium Lasers and then I run through and skirmish with my owl head torso twist getting plenty of damage and kills....at the very least component destruction. The weapons work well if you use them effectively and rely on your team to do the initial damage. Its a good way to clean up and quickly thin the heard.

[MustrumRidcully]

The MG on a lighter mech is in a particular weak spot. The Spider and Cicada "MG" variants particular don't need a heat-neutral weapon. If you install Double Heat Sinks, you got a dissipation of 2 per second. That would allow you to run 2 Medium Lasers or a Large Laser completely heat neutral. If you had 4 Medium Lasers, you would overheat only after 25 seconds.

That means for 4 tons of investment, you could get a DPS of 6 for 25 seconds. 25 seconds is really a long time in a typical battle, most combats will have pauses beyond that time. In those 25 second, you'll deal 150 damage, which is enough to at least cripple an Atlas, potentially kill it if you get to target the rear - without any help.


Or you can invest 1 ton for a medium laser, 2 tons for 4 MGs, and 1 ton for armour, for a total of 4 tons.
Which gives you a DPS of 2.85. So less than half of what the 4 Medium Laser mech could do. So you take at least twice as long for anything the other mech does to armour.
The armour to internal ration is 2 points per 1 point of internal structure.
That means on a maxed location it takes you x time to destroy the enemies armour, you need 1/2 x time to destroy his internal structure, meaning the total time to destroy a hit location is 1.5x.
If you need twice as long on the first part (armour) and are roughly 10 times as fast on the second part, you will need 2x + 0.05x = 2.05x to destroy that hit location.

Except the MG doesn't actually do that. It only destroys the internals of that hit location. Basically, if there is more than two items in that location, these items will have more hit points than the location has internal armour.

Let's say you have the Quad MG +1 ML and the Quad Laser Mechs cooperate on a hit location.
That means you would need 1/3x on the first part, and 1/22x on the second part, e.g 0.387x t destroy the location.
If you just had 2 Quad Laser Mechs, you would have needed 1/4x and 1/8x = 0.375x to destroy the location.
So even under optimum cooperation, the Quad MG is not really "helpful" support.

Now if you could somehow always switch between all the targets that have been "opened" by your team, maybe there is a configuration where the Quad MG + 1ML build will be slightly better. But that requires pretty much perfect coordination and probably require the enemy to work with you on that.

Tuku, on 20 February 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

I still dont understand why people put value on a weapon based on what one mech can do with it in a team oriented game. I run a 2 LBX K2 with 4 medium Lasers and an xl315.....Usually I hold back a bit at the start of a match and wait for the fight to begin...maybe taking shots here and there with my Medium Lasers and then I run through and skirmish with my owl head torso twist getting plenty of damage and kills....at the very least component destruction. The weapons work well if you use them effectively and rely on your team to do the initial damage. Its a good way to clean up and quickly thin the heard.

The point is - assuming equal degree of team work, other weapons are still better. You still kill or disable the enemy faster by using other weapons. It's not like using 2 Ultra AC/5 or an AC/10 suddenly stops you to work in a team.

[KinLuu]

One Medic Army, on 20 February 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

If they ever implement engine/gyro/life support criticals I am so going to run around in a 4MG spider finishing off everyone with open CT/RCT armor, and I will laugh maniacally all the while.

As long as engine parts can not be critted, critseeker weapons are "meh" at best.

[Adrienne Vorton]

hashinshin, on 19 February 2013 - 11:49 PM, said:

two conflicting statements.

both are correct:

in BT terms,the internals are called "critical space" and criticial hits actually means a hit to those... weither THROUGH/bypassing the armor or hitting an unarmored part...

MG/Flamer/LB10-X deal enhanced critical damage...

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 20 February 2013 - 01:16 AM.

[Asmosis]

Vrekgar, on 19 February 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

Crits increase the DPS of certain weapons against internals. Some mechs internals are very strong and tough to kill, and the new crit seeking weapons tear into them pretty fiercely.

You dont deal increased damage to the internal structure, you deal increased damage to the components housed in the internal structure.

*edit* forgot that engines can't actually be destroyed, you need to destroy the torso section itself to disable engine.

Edited by Asmosis, 20 February 2013 - 01:21 AM.

[Selfish]

You actually can destroy the engine. It has 15 HP that's shared over all its critical slots (even those housed in the side torsos for XL engines). Its destruction just doesn't have an affect on gameplay yet. This makes CT mounted laser hardpoints fairly hardy, as you have to crit through the engine before you can reliably have a chance to strike at them.

[DirePhoenix]

I think there are couple issues here with terminology:

• First is "critical damage":
  
  • This term in BattleTech refers to damage to an internal piece of equipment, rendering it useless or impeding its performance. In most contemporary MMOs however, this term has come to mean some sort of randomly procced bonus or multiplied damage. In MWO, this still has the BattleTech meaning.
• Second is "component":
  
  • This is a really horrible use of this term (I bet whoever came up with using this term like this is Canadian) because component is also a term for "item" or "part", which can easily be confused for the equipment items placed in the internals of our 'mechs. A better term would be "hit location" because that is precisely what it is: an area that can be targeted (Head, Center Torso, Right/Left Torso, Right/Left Arms/Legs)

[MustrumRidcully]

Yes, the confusion about hit location and component is bad. It definitely seems to me that "Componend Destroyed" is actually referring to hit locations, not items inside the hit location, which will only add to the confusion.

[Thirdstar]

MustrumRidcully, on 20 February 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

Yes, the confusion about hit location and component is bad. It definitely seems to me that "Componend Destroyed" is actually referring to hit locations, not items inside the hit location, which will only add to the confusion.

Yes, as the game is relatively young the nitty gritty terminology is very much in flux. I assume it's not a priority at the moment but it is something to look at in the long term. Both players and devs can understand issues with systems better if everything is speaking the same 'language'.