108 replies to this topic

[Serapth]

DocBach, on 20 February 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

The LB10-X needs to do more damage from the start -- right now it weighs as much as three SRM-6 with an SRM-4 added for good measure. With each missile hitting that is 55 damage vs 10 damage for the LB10-X, if all cluster shots hit. The LB10-X needs its each submunition buffed up, perhaps from 1 to 3 damage for it to be considered a worthwhile weapon against the SRM's, the LB10-X's heat advantage doesn't make up for the raw damage taking the missile battery provides. Conversely, the SRM's could be brought back down from 2.5 damage a missile to 2 damage a missile to balance them against the LB-X better.

I tend to think its the SRM that is out of line, not the LBX.

When you compare against other AC weapons... the AC5 and AC10, the LBX is a reasonable if flawed weapon.

But compared against the SRM its a POS. SRMs are doing wayyyyyy too much damage right now, which is why Splatcats and other SRM boats are so common.

[Sifright]

Viper69, on 20 February 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

What does him having a gold tag have anything to do with his opinion or obsevations being wrong in your opinion? Can you not debate someone without reaching into the insult hat? Do yourself and your future arguments a favor and leave personal insults out. It does nothing but erase all the work you put into your argument.

Take my advice with a grain of salt if you wish.



Exactly why lbx need their pellet damage upped and prox fused detonation not point of origin spread.

Strictly speaking, his gold tag has nothing to do with it.

However there is a rather disturbing and amusing correlation between players being utterly terrible and having no idea how the game actually works and having the gold tag. Hence the origin of 'Gold Vision' and other such appellations.

[Serapth]

Viper69, on 20 February 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

Exactly why lbx need their pellet damage upped and prox fused detonation not point of origin spread.

I tend to think the trend needs to go the other way, especially with the boating that already occurs in this game. Weapons shouldn't have their damaged up'ed if they aren't powerful enough compared to other weapons, those weapons need their damage reduced.

Especially with clan weapons eventually coming to the game. No matter how cannon it is, getting one-shotted isnt fun for anyone except the guy in the boat.

[Sifright]

Serapth, on 20 February 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

I tend to think its the SRM that is out of line, not the LBX.

When you compare against other AC weapons... the AC5 and AC10, the LBX is a reasonable if flawed weapon.

But compared against the SRM its a POS. SRMs are doing wayyyyyy too much damage right now, which is why Splatcats and other SRM boats are so common.

The thing with that is that bare bones AC weapons have always been junk out side of maybe the AC20.

[Esplodin]

Taurich, on 20 February 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

It doesn't, not unless your playstyle includes magicking these awful weapons to do 10x their normal dps.

I'd keep saying there is more than DPS to consider, but . . .



See you on the battlefield!

[Joseph Mallan]

Esplodin, on 20 February 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

I'd keep saying there is more than DPS to consider,

AC2 is the perfect example of this. Cyclic time can be used to make a weak weapon effective.

[De La Fresniere]

Serapth, on 20 February 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

Compared to other AC's, the lighter weight and more ammo is offset by the short range and lack of accuracy, a fair enough trade off.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree... it's still a very heavy weapon and you have to add even more weight for ammo (which might explode, too), so it's actually too heavy for its damage in the first place. Then you factor in the spread; as you say, short range and inaccurate (both *very* important stats) and you end up with a weapon that doesn't deal as much damage as it should for the investment/risk, has no real range and is inaccurate. As with other ballistics, it can run out of ammo, too.

2 MLs and 8 sinks, there you go. LB10-X damage for less weight, no risk, pinpoint accuracy, much better range, can't run out of ammo.

If every other weapon makes it look bad, it's not because all the other weapons are too good. It's because that one weapon is clearly inferior.

[Sifright]

Esplodin, on 20 February 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

I'd keep saying there is more than DPS to consider, but . . .



See you on the battlefield!

I already debunked the other effects you talked about.

Your lack of understanding about the game mechanics is why you keep claiming DPS isn't everything when it really really is.

Only two things matter with a weapon. The damage it does and how it delivers that damage.

Nothing else is important in this game. All the ancillary effects that weapons do are for the most part junk. The only exception being ppcs which disable ecm.

Joseph Mallan, on 20 February 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

AC2 is the perfect example of this. Cyclic time can be used to make a weak weapon effective.

By changing the refire rate you change the dps.

[DocBach]

Sifright, on 20 February 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

The thing with that is that bare bones AC weapons have always been junk out side of maybe the AC20.

Not really, when they were introduced. They originally were attractive because there were no double heat sinks, and their added weight over energy weapons was balanced out by the fraction of the heat they generated.

Say I have gold vision, but I won't take that as an insult from the guy who thinks machine guns need to have their damage boosted against medium lasers.

[Esplodin]

Sifright, on 20 February 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

im done arguing here because people are literally trying to argue people works in a way contrary to how it does.

FIFY. Lights fight the pilot, not the metal.

Edited by Esplodin, 20 February 2013 - 07:53 AM.

[Budor]

Theres tons of loadouts that didnt use the ballistic hardpoints at all. You can now mount mgs that do 0.5dmg-1.5dmg per critroll with a fire rate off 10 per second. On said builds i take this any day over 1 added DHS.

[MourningZero]

Stringburka, on 20 February 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

tl:dr; crit damage is ( .39 * 0.44 + .22 * 2 * 0.44 + .06 * 3 * 0.44 ) / 12 * 10 = 0.4225 DPS to each critical slot

Good idea for a calculation, although I get 0.37 DPS when I run your posted numbers. It looks like you're running a machinegun bullet crit damage as 0.44 when it should be 0.5. I didn't think of doing this before I saw your formula, but it gets me thinking. Since the ideal targets are ammo slots in the legs, which will be single crit locations out of 6, and have 10 hitpoints, we can do the following.
From your formula vs. a leg location, we get ( .39 * 0.5 + .22 * 2 * 0.5 + .06 * 3 * 0.5 ) / 6 * 10 =
0.84 DPS to a single crit location. So a single machinegun with no outside assistance will very likely trigger an ammo explosion in an opened leg over 10 / 0.84 ~ 12 seconds of continuous fire. Not so hot. Stack 3 MGs on there for the lulz and you can bring it down to 12 / 3 = 4 sec. Still not really worth pursuing honestly, but it will definitely destroy the ammo before that 0.4 DPS manages to eat through the actual internal structure...

These times to kill ammo for MGs are doubled when shooting arms and torso's with ammunition. So if our math is right, even with this buff the chances of turning this into a viable strategy are slim. 24 seconds versus a 12 slot location. Seriously?

The king ammo crit weapons are probably still anything that does 10+ damage per shot for the occasional chance to one shot the ammo in that location. Sure you might 'accidentally' lop off the location that you are hunting for an ammo explosion in, but that's not as bad as standing there focusing fire with your machinegun for 24 seconds hoping that Atlas stored some ammo in his left torso, only to find that he didn't, and you've accomplished nothing else during that time.

Edited by MourningZero, 20 February 2013 - 08:08 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sifright, on 20 February 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

I already debunked the other effects you talked about.

Your lack of understanding about the game mechanics is why you keep claiming DPS isn't everything when it really really is.

Only two things matter with a weapon. The damage it does and how it delivers that damage.

Nothing else is important in this game. All the ancillary effects that weapons do are for the most part junk. The only exception being ppcs which disable ecm.



By changing the refire rate you change the dps.

And you change your damage per turn, one will affect the other, but more shots per turn is more important to weapons like ballistics and missiles. Damage per second is a weird stat to me. I fire my AC once every 3-4 seconds. I could care less how much damage my weapon does when its not actually firing.

[DocBach]

Joe, his argument is just pure math and doesn't take in account for things like cover blocking your shots, missing. Its just pure potential, and ignores stuff like, real life use.

[Sifright]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 February 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

And you change your damage per turn, one will affect the other, but more shots per turn is more important to weapons like ballistics and missiles. Damage per second is a weird stat to me. I fire my AC once every 3-4 seconds. I could care less how much damage my weapon does when its not actually firing.

it's a good metric for comparing weapons across the board. Obviously the small details matter like does it deal that damage in an instant burst or does it deal the damage over time?
In general weapons where you front load your damage tend to be better because the more of them a group has the more likely you are to kill an enemy before he can output his damage if he uses DoT weapons.

DocBach, on 20 February 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

Joe, his argument is just pure math and doesn't take in account for things like cover blocking your shots, missing. Its just pure potential, and ignores stuff like, real life use.

Well on that level the MG and Flamer are even worse because achieving perfect damage with it is impossible you have to track the target 100% of the time you are firing which is all of the time. Which means you have no ability to evade fire.

In a real situation the MG and flamer are even worse than just going off the DPS vs weight and heat figures.

[Destoroyah]

I'm not satisfied with the changes to these weapons. While the changes are a good thing cause these weapons finally got a buff, the buff was only addressing half of the real issue.

The main problem with their crit seeking solution is that it only works on equipment and not internal structure too so if there is no item there to crit your only doing pathetic damage.

MG's needed a damage buff more thencrit seeking. Mainly cause there are numerous mechs that are built around this weapon and don't got enough other weapons to help strip the armor so the MGs can do their magic, prime examples being the cicada 3C and spider 5K both are too light to really consider mounting bigger ballistics.
They should increase the bullet damage to 0.08 and then just adjust the crit seeking values to something equal to what we got now.

Flamers I'm not exactly sure how they work heat wise, I know they help reduce the targets heat dissapation but not more trhen that as far as I can tell. The real problem with flamers is their extreme close range requirements and poor damage. Getting in so close can be a death trap especially against a mech with lots of shotgun like weapons. Even the blinding feature is two fold while the enemy gets the worst of it the constant flame effect and the added smoke generated makes it hard on the user as well to properly place shots.
What I would of like see done givin the flamers flame projectile size is to make the flamer a aoe weapon that will deal 0.04 damage to multiple locations at once so while not good concentrated fire it can be nice for getting crits on opponents that have lots of exposed sections, and keep the same crit values.

As for the LBX the only real main problem is that the weapon is supposed to be a shaped proximity charge similiar to flak, but PGI is treating it like a shotgun. The problem with the shotgun effect is mostly the spread. If they would tighen the spread and restrain the spread to a cylindrical basis the weapon would be so much better as it can now be more effectively used at range.

Edited by Destoroyah, 20 February 2013 - 08:21 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

DocBach, on 20 February 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

The LB10-X needs to do more damage from the start -- right now it weighs as much as three SRM-6 with an SRM-4 added for good measure. With each missile hitting that is 55 damage vs 10 damage for the LB10-X, if all cluster shots hit. The LB10-X needs its each submunition buffed up, perhaps from 1 to 3 damage for it to be considered a worthwhile weapon against the SRM's, the LB10-X's heat advantage doesn't make up for the raw damage taking the missile battery provides. Conversely, the SRM's could be brought back down from 2.5 damage a missile to 2 damage a missile to balance them against the LB-X better.

The LB cannons are further gimped because it should be firing Shells and cluster rounds. It is supposed to be able to punch holes in an enemy and then exploit it with crits after.

[MourningZero]

Proposed MG crit chance test:

Find a friend in voicechat willing to be a guinea pig for a match. Pick an appendage to be the test dummy - I'd suggest an arm. Place a variety of single crit-slot items into the arm location to be destroyed (eg. Single heatsinks, medium lasers, etc...) Fill it all the way up to 12 to test arm and torso crits, or just up to 6 to test legs. Empty critical spaces should not count and multi-critical items throw the math off by being destroyed earlier than single slot items. Ammo is risky since you've still got a match to play after the test is complete. Lower the armor of this location to 0.

Load some f'n machine guns onto your test gundam and drop in with your friend. Hit the stopwatch and unleash dakka. Stop the watch when friend reports items destroyed. Report findings to this thread.

Thanks guinea pigs!

[DocBach]

Until it gets slugs, its not competing against other direct fire weapons like the PPC or AC/10, it's competing in functionality against SRM's, which out damage it exponentially. Compare a Catapult K2 with two LB-10X's to an A1 with six SRM-6 -- the two LB-10X's weigh four tons more while doing a maximum of 20 damage spread across a target. The SRM-6 boat does a max of 90 damage spread across the target, and can even be made to tighten the spread down to concentrate damage with Artemis.

[blazarian]

MG and flamer are useless. Nothing else to add there.

What I would do is to increase MG DPS and lessen the ammo per ton the same amount. So it outputs the "1000 ammo per ton" damage faster but has the same damage per ton.

Flamer should cause more heat to enemy mech. It should be used as a disabler. Would be a role in which it makes some sense. If the inflicted heat is increased, the weapon weight and slot requirement should be also.

I'm thinking that MG and flamer could be suited for certain roles in the game but not as they are (too cheap, light and small).