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Sons Of Frustration - Aftermath 2/19/13


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#61 Cattra Kell

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:09 AM

View PostBlack Ivan, on 20 February 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

I no longer play regularly because of ECM.
It's not even close to what Guardian ECM should be and shows how little PGI understands from Battletech.

I wish the licence had gone to a more capable developer.


I know right - it should be countering more - like your heat scans, magscans and night vision like in the Lore and the TRO's

Edited by Cattra Kell, 20 February 2013 - 09:10 AM.


#62 Vassago Rain

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:10 AM

View PostBlack Ivan, on 20 February 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

I no longer play regularly because of ECM.
It's not even close to what Guardian ECM should be and shows how little PGI understands from Battletech.

I wish the licence had gone to a more capable developer.


We should totally impose the AC min-ranges while we're at it, and add a random cluster table to LRMs. Then we could make the game stock only, and every fourth player would need a game master, who'd be well-versed in the lore, and have the final say on the few handful of mods the players could now make to the mechs.

I think we should go one step further, actually.

We need more traditional BT art. The art we have is too flashy. It doesn't look quite right.

Posted Image

There. that looks a bit better, but I still think we should maybe add rotary barrels and gigantic ammo drums to the catapult. For the missiles, you know.

#63 Warlune

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:11 AM

WHY DON'T YOU CRY MORE

WAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
WAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH

Stay your tongue and it's insolence

#64 Bguk

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:13 AM

View PostInertiaman, on 20 February 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

Five hundred and sixty-three words in his post and that's the best rebuttal you have?


Yes, because I stopped reading once I hit that. I assumed he would go ahead and have a level headed reply this once and was fooled yet again. The rest may have, but once I see that then I shut off. Silly me.

#65 Pihoqahiak

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:11 AM

View PostMadSavage, on 20 February 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

There's these things called gunz and lazors and OMFG THEY KILL STOMPY BOTS and THEY AREN'T AFFECTED BY ECM!


What you don't seem to grasp is that all ECM does is make people not use two entire weapon systems in the game because competently used ECM makes them worthless. Why risk wasting weight and mech slots on weapons/mechs that are nullified by 1.5 tons, 2 crit locations and zero weapon hardpoints worth of equipment that doesn't even need to be actively interacted with to do what it does? Almost every single weapon, module, piece of equipment and mech that knowledgeable players think about using are done so taking ECM into consideration. The game largely revolves around that one small, light, cheap component. It still amazes me that when that is the case, people still somehow think it's a balanced aspect to a game. Hell, even if your enemy only uses direct fire weapons, ECM is STILL worth it for it's stealth effects.

#66 ferranis

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:14 AM

Clearly too few people have experienced the missle apocalypse in cb and after 'certain' patches when ecm wasnt implemented.

They would want ecm back so fast even roadrunner wouldnt be fast enough to carry the message.

#67 Pihoqahiak

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:18 AM

View PostCattra Kell, on 20 February 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

I know right - it should be countering more - like your heat scans, magscans and night vision like in the Lore and the TRO's


Can't let this one go, because you are way off on it and people might believe you. Guardian ECM in Battletech does NOT do nearly as much as what it does in MW:O. It resembles what some of the ECM prototypes were, but they were far heavier and bulkier. This doesn't mean that I think everything in MW:O should be exactly like it is in Battletech, but it should be at least in the ball park, if not, then just call the game something else and you have no need to bother with trying to keep to the spirit of an established franchise.

#68 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:23 AM

View PostVoridan Atreides, on 20 February 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

ECM should counter NARC. The 35 dmg on the NARC is a little low but I guess everything PGI does is concrete and cannot be changed ever right? All I hear is a bunch of whining. Man up.

IIRC TT was once armor was totally removed from the NARCed location. 35 points IS a lot of armor for most Mechs.

#69 verybad

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:25 AM

I do see NARC as a very good potential counter for ECM that is also skill based.

Just make it:
1. Work in ECM bubbles. *
* However, only direct views keep locks on the NARCed target.
2. Have no time base, just a damage base (35 is a good start, try that out)
3. Increase ammo for narcs like you did with everything else (ie 12 per ton)
4. Think about adding a NARC feature that allows the firing player to explode the narc for some small amount of dame (5?) by pressing a button.

Narc would then be a skill based counter for ECM, it would weigh more and have shorter range than TAG, so TAG would have a purpose, but it would be a worthwhile piece of equipment. It wouldn't ruin ECM, but it would give fast scout's a very useful new role in getting close and narcing units. Thus increasing encounters and making everyone happy.

#70 Pihoqahiak

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:25 AM

View Postferranis, on 20 February 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Clearly too few people have experienced the missle apocalypse in cb and after 'certain' patches when ecm wasnt implemented.

They would want ecm back so fast even roadrunner wouldnt be fast enough to carry the message.


I remember it well, although trading one demon for another doesn't really improve anything. PGI made poor decisions regarding LRM balance, just as they've made poor decisions regarding ECM capability. The troubling aspect to it is how long it takes them to admit when they've gone the wrong way with something and how long it takes them to properly address the balancing problems. LRM balancing would've been easily addressed with minor reduction in damage per missile and reduced cockpit shake (well and not having that whole period of time where they would mostly drop down onto your head because of the trajectory they used). There are quite a few methods of addressing ECM balance that many people have posted on the forums, but from what has happened so far, they have apparently fallen on deaf ears. Instead, PGI tries to marginally chip away at ECM with many other pieces of equipment with very little success and oblivious to the fact that none of those change the basic premise of 1.5 tons and 2 crit locations worth of ECM is just plain doing more than it should for such a minor cost.

Edited by Pihoqahiak, 20 February 2013 - 10:28 AM.


#71 ferranis

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:29 AM

Dont see ecm as a 1.5 ton equipment, its the mech. Certain mechs have ecm, thats all about it.

It brings much needed depht to the game, honestly, what is wrong about it? You can counter it with skill. (lrm boats have to work for their damage, sitting back and pressing target and fire should not do the trick).

#72 Shibas

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:35 AM

HAHA, holy crap this thread is great, it has everything but constructive criticism.

Enjoy general chat while you can boys and girls, next stop, K-Town.

le sigh.

#73 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:40 AM

View PostPihoqahiak, on 20 February 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:


I remember it well, although trading one demon for another doesn't really improve anything. PGI made poor decisions regarding LRM balance, just as they've made poor decisions regarding ECM capability. The troubling aspect to it is how long it takes them to admit when they've gone the wrong way with something and how long it takes them to properly address the balancing problems. LRM balancing would've been easily addressed with minor reduction in damage per missile and reduced cockpit shake (well and not having that whole period of time where they would mostly drop down onto your head because of the trajectory they used). There are quite a few methods of addressing ECM balance that many people have posted on the forums, but from what has happened so far, they have apparently fallen on deaf ears. Instead, PGI tries to marginally chip away at ECM with many other pieces of equipment with very little success and oblivious to the fact that none of those change the basic premise of 1.5 tons and 2 crit locations worth of ECM is just plain doing more than it should for such a minor cost.


There is this viewpoint. There is also the viewpoint that PGI is aware and trying to balance via Tabletop rules. Unfortunately this makes many things useless, like the BAP and NARC. I guess the question PGI needs to answer is will they stick to TT and have many items that are simply worthless, or will they balance for good gameplay and every item being useful?

with the addition of modules for lock on time and sensor range we are a step closer to a better battlefield. However some choices remain questionable like the new "warning you are being targetted" which really hurts spotters even more.

Currently it seems to me that PGI has their own view of how the game should progress and be balanced, and that that viewpoint is leading to increased user numbers & improved overall gameplay, and that while there is a large and vocal group that has expressed discontent with ECM, this group is completely overshadowed by the massive majority that seems to love ECM but says very little on the forums.

Again this just comes down to numbers - if player numbers are increasing and the overall experience & game has improved from ECM why would PGI change?

if on the other hand people are getting fed up by poor gameplay, the worst radar since mechwarrior 1, and ECM that seems extremely OP for a 400K item and cant be countered by anything but ECM, well, in a normal game a developer would be like hmmmm I bet now everyone will take ECM or direct fire, since here PGI must stick to tabletop rules we are perhaps simply out of luck.

Another possibility could be that the license for the game where sold under very strict rules to PGI, and PGI is being forced to implement poor balance choices due to lack of options to do otherwise.

imho NARC is still useless, as is BAP. ECM is dominant, and when it comes down to pure winning and community warfare with current game design we will see 75% ECM mechs, with non ECM mechs being pure direct fire mechs to insure that they never bring a weapon that could possibly end up being completely worthless on the battlefield due to ECM.

Overall it strikes me that we have seen incredible suggestions to balance ECM and yet maintain its ability to disrupt LRM/SSRM boats, and given the months of time PGI has had to address we will either see some real progress soon in game balance or we will see the continuation of gravitation to more and more ECM mechs on the battlefield, with jumpsnipers to round the teams out.

The game isnt terrible, certainly, but it still stands to see improved development over it's predecessors.

#74 Khanahar

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:45 AM

It's the worst when someone makes a sensible point about one thing (ECM balance) but loses all sympathy and credibility by then diving right off the deep end.

Real darn sad.

#75 Cattra Kell

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:48 AM

View PostPihoqahiak, on 20 February 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:


Can't let this one go, because you are way off on it and people might believe you. Guardian ECM in Battletech does NOT do nearly as much as what it does in MW:O. It resembles what some of the ECM prototypes were, but they were far heavier and bulkier. This doesn't mean that I think everything in MW:O should be exactly like it is in Battletech, but it should be at least in the ball park, if not, then just call the game something else and you have no need to bother with trying to keep to the spirit of an established franchise.



TechReadout 3050 P. 197 states that current Guardian ECM suits do counter all electronics (even more then in MW:O) - including your scans - the only thing that changed from the SLDF prototypes to the modern ones was that they couldn't do both offensive and defensive at the same time and they weighed 7 tons and took up 4 critical slots.

That being said you do have a point - the extra tons and the 4 slots would maybe even some of the things out instead of allowing it to only be its current stats. It would be bulkier and more awkward - also heavier would make the pilot have a choice because at 7 tons the 3L stripped (no FF and no endo) + ECM only with default engine (210 XL) would only have 10.98 tons to work with, 11.51 with FF, 12.47 with endo and 13.01 with both. Add on the required HS's for two more extra tons and you still have some wiggle room but not as much.

edit in: Not saying that this is a perfect god-fix to the problem - but it might help.

Edited by Cattra Kell, 20 February 2013 - 10:51 AM.






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