25 replies to this topic

[Boronho]

A simple question: I thought ECM is disrupting your mech's ability to communicate with teammates. And if I stay inside the ECM-bubble of an enemy my target data cannot be shared with teammates, so of course they cannot use my TAG-signal to guide their missles.

But I don't understand the logic why I cannot use my TAG-laser to mark an enemy and guide my missles on it while staying inside the ECM-bubble (of any enemy) myself. I think I should see the "dot" of an infrared laser like the TAG on the enemy and I should be able to guide my own missles.

Or is there simply no logic and it's just a gamedesign decision to nerf streaks and give ECM more power?

[Deamhan]

Exactly

[Gristle]

Boronho, on 20 February 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

... it's just a gamedesign decision to nerf streaks and give ECM more power?

[The Mecha Streisand]

Dunno. I'd think the bigger question of TAG is range...

I cannot TAG an enemy AT ALL at 751 meters or more. So, if I tag him at 749, another mech some 999 meters away can launch LRMs at him more accurately. This would at least IMPLY an effect of some 1,748+ meters.

After all, the 'spot' seen on the enemy target is light. Well, SOME manner of EM radiation. Photons travelling through space-time, at any rate. IF they simply cannot affect a target at 751 meters, then how can they bounce off of it from 2 fewer meters' range and be detected for another 999+? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

And the light bouncing off of the target must retain certain properties in order to be recognized by other electronic sensors. It must also be distinct from that of any/every other TAG operating within range as well.

I'd think it should be a function of the sum of the range from TAG to target and from target to firer. The closer the TAG laser is, the farther the firer may be while still enjoying the positive effect. Consider TAG to have a max combined range of 1,400 meters, for instance. If I TAG a target from 400 meters away, then missiles fired from up to 1,000 meters can enjoy the immediate effect of TAG. If I'm 700 meters away from my target when I TAG, however, then the firer would have to be within 700 as well, or the missiles would be TAG-less at launch. If I'm self-TAGging, I should be within 700 meters of my target as well. Just for instance...

[Boronho]

Quote

I cannot TAG an enemy AT ALL at 751 meters or more. So, if I tag him at 749, another mech some 999 meters away can launch LRMs at him more accurately. This would at least IMPLY an effect of some 1,748+ meters.

It's not that your mate can see the dot on the enemy from 1000 meters away. The dot can be seen within 750 meters or below only by your mech.. BUT your mech provides targetting data to your mate that can be evereywhere on the map. If the target is inside his missle range he can fire.

When you or your mate are inside an enemy ECM the mech's computers cannot communicate with each other and no information can be exchanged.

Edited by Boronho, 20 February 2013 - 11:36 AM.

[Thomas Dziegielewski]

The laser is for the benefit of your targeting system.

Your systems then broadcast this data to friendly targeting systems allowing them to target.

When you are within an ECM bubble your transmissions to your friendlies are jammed.

[Stringburka]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 20 February 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

The laser is for the benefit of your targeting system.

Your systems then broadcast this data to friendly targeting systems allowing them to target.

When you are within an ECM bubble your transmissions to your friendlies are jammed.

Yes, but if I carry both SSRM and TAG, why can't I use TAG to increase effectiveness of my own SSRM?

[Nathan Foxbane]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 20 February 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

The laser is for the benefit of your targeting system.

Your systems then broadcast this data to friendly targeting systems allowing them to target.

When you are within an ECM bubble your transmissions to your friendlies are jammed.

Please tell me that if we ever are allowed to use Arrow IV Homing Missiles that it will act like a proper laser guided missile and pick up the reflected beam for itself instead of using relayed telemetry.

[ElLocoMarko]

Ignore the poster who doesn't understand C&C.

Here here! ECM does nothing with light. Owner of the TAG should always get targeting info.
If ECM messed with lasers it would look like this..

Edited by ElLocoMarko, 20 February 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[hammerreborn]

ElLocoMarko, on 20 February 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Ignore the poster who doesn't understand C&C.

Here here! ECM does nothing with light. Owner of the TAG should always get targeting info.
If ECM messed with lasers it would look like this..

The owner of TAG does always get targetting info. If he's outside of 180m, he gets his targetting information from TAG (in case of target with ECM) or his own sensors (without ECM or within the 180-250m target allowed bubble).

If he's inside of 180m, he gets his own sensor information and is able to target the ECM mech. However, his lock on systems are jammed (from ECM), and his relaying/communications are jammed (which is why you cannot relay target information or even your own position to your teammates while inside the bubble).

I'm really not sure what is so hard to understand about this. It's really really easy.

Edited by hammerreborn, 20 February 2013 - 12:00 PM.

[Sigifrid]

TAG is essentially a tool to paint a target (laser guidance). Considering the effective range of the tag, I would imagine that the reflected radiation would give the LRM boats outside of the ECM bubble information regardless of where the TAG is fired from. The TAG system transmits data via "a tight-beam laser communication system", directly to the munitions fired upon the target.

Unless the ECM prevents laser energy from being reflected/transmitted...HOWEVER, that would mean that the TAG cannot possibly work on ECM protected mechs, thus resulting in contradicting effects.

EDIT: The assumption that only the mech that fires the TAG can see it is flawed, especially since we can see the TAG laser with the naked eye.

Edited by Sigifrid, 20 February 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[Boronho]

I like the effect that ECM is blocking your mech from sharing targtting data with teammates. But I see no reason (on the "technical" side) that would make it impossible for my own mech (that fires the TAG) to use the TAG to lock my missles on the target.

Quote

If he's inside of 180m, he gets his own sensor information and is able to target the ECM mech. However, his lock on systems are jammed (from ECM),

I don't see why my "lock on systems" should be jammed ... then my whole mech would get malfunctions.

[Liquidx]

I hereby request the addition of a new cockpit item: TINFOIL HAT.

This hat would have the properties of allowing my own targeting systems to lock on to an enemy mech when I use my own TAG system. I mean.. I can already target them when I use my own tag, so why can I not lock on with missiles and use the laser to guide them?

It works for LRM - so why not SSRM ?

The system is horribly broken imo.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Sigifrid, on 20 February 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

TAG is essentially a tool to paint a target (laser guidance). Considering the effective range of the tag, I would imagine that the reflected radiation would give the LRM boats outside of the ECM bubble information regardless of where the TAG is fired from. The TAG system transmits data via "a tight-beam laser communication system", directly to the munitions fired upon the target.

Unless the ECM prevents laser energy from being reflected/transmitted...HOWEVER, that would mean that the TAG cannot possibly work on ECM protected mechs, thus resulting in contradicting effects.

EDIT: The assumption that only the mech that fires the TAG can see it is flawed, especially since we can see the TAG laser with the naked eye.

This assumes line of sight I presume. Our guided munitions do not seem to be laser guided so targeting data has to be provided via telemetry if there is no line of sight. Perhaps what we should gun for is that TAG works no matter what as long as the attacking 'Mech has line of sight on the designated 'Mech. But then a host of fun new problems comes up that we have to deal with like how the community at large adjusts to that change.

[shintakie]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 20 February 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

The laser is for the benefit of your targeting system.

Your systems then broadcast this data to friendly targeting systems allowing them to target.

When you are within an ECM bubble your transmissions to your friendlies are jammed.

So there you go. Game design thing to nerf streaks and buff ECM.

Question answered.

[Fred013]

Liquidx, on 20 February 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

It works for LRM - so why not SSRM ?

The system is horribly broken imo.

Because streaks are OP enough already.

[pseudocoder]

30plusRAbbi, on 20 February 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

After all, the 'spot' seen on the enemy target is light. Well, SOME manner of EM radiation. Photons travelling through space-time, at any rate.

What you are describing is how ground based laser targeting systems work to "paint" a target for a guided munition dropped from an aircraft. I don't think that's how TAG is supposed to work.

It appears that TAG is something like a laser rangefinder which uses C3 to relay targeting information from your mech to team mechs. Your teammates do NOT use the refraction of the TAG beam on the target, otherwise you would need line of sight to target a TAG'd enemy.

I agree that if TAG works to pierce the ECM bubble from outside it, you should be able to use it locally (within your own mech) to designate a target while within the bubble.

[FrostCollar]

Yeah, there's no good reason why TAG doesn't work for the user within a bubble. My own suspicion is that the game currently cannot support enemy 'mechs being considered tagged from the perspective of one friendly 'mech and not from another.

[Liquidx]

Fred013, on 20 February 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Because streaks are OP enough already.

Considering the streaks would only primarily be used to counter lights with ecm that mount their own streaks, I fail to see your point.

Lets see.. I have a rock and you have a rock. I can throw my rock at you, but you have to keep yours in your pocket because I'm wearing a special hat. Yea, you COULD reach into your pocket to get your rock, but it turns out your rock is coated in crazy glue. jokes on you.

BTW, my rock just broke your nose.

[shintakie]

FrostCollar, on 20 February 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Yeah, there's no good reason why TAG doesn't work for the user within a bubble. My own suspicion is that the game currently cannot support enemy 'mechs being considered tagged from the perspective of one friendly 'mech and not from another.

This is actually an interestin thought. As far as we've seen, its always been all or nothing. Either the whole team can see you or no one can see you. We haven't actually seen if its possible to only be a target of a single mech.

Maybe they're workin on that tech next?