152 replies to this topic

[Enig]

SinnerX, on 20 February 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Other ECM - An items that counters itself is extremely poor game design.
PPC (which also pump out plenty of damage at long range) - You do realize PPCs are largest, heaviest, and hottest energy weapons available, right?
Tag (which also functions to expedite missile locks) - Yes, the only real counter, which unfortunately takes up a weapon hardpoint versus something that can be stuck anywhere.
Component destruction - No.
Communication (We need built-in VOIP for this to truly be effective) - No.
BAP and Sensor Range to a limited extent - Actually, ECM counters BAP. You can argue about sensor range, which is a poor counter given the GXP and cbill cost for the module.

1. "items that counters itself is extremely poor game design." By who's definition? Subjective statement.
2. "You do realize PPCs are largest, heaviest, and hottest energy weapons available, right?" It's also the most damaging and the longest range.
3. "Yes, the only real counter, which unfortunately takes up a weapon hardpoint versus something that can be stuck anywhere." I'm not sure I understand this one, are you saying that every mech is supposed to fill every hardpoint with a weapon system for every build, ever?
4. Compotent Destruction - "No" Actually it works, have you never disabled an ECM or gotten your disabled through component destruction? I've had both scenarios occur.
5. Now you're just not reading my post, I said to a limited extent was BAP and Sensor Range effective.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

wwiiogre, on 20 February 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

I have to disagree, current ECM is not ECM, it is null sig and not part of the current timeline of BattleTech and the Inner Sphere.

The Current cannot lock on is the equivalent of Ghost Targeting.

Battle Tech ECM has 3 functions each with its own setting:

1. ECM which stops narc/artemis from working, note does not stop TAG
2. ECCM which stops 1 and 3
3. Ghost Targeting which is supposed to make it harder to hit the protected target has a 180meter range from host and is affected by BAP and Command Console

Currently we have ECM which does 1 & 3 (but 3 is currently null sig, no lock can be acquired except between 180-200 meters)

The best solution I can come up with is two fold, first institute a third setting on ECM, meaning either stop artemis/narc, eccm or ghost target, not 1 & 3 at same time. The real thing that ghost targeting should do is make it take longer to lock on over and above the normal time it takes to lock on to a mech. So say make it take 6 seconds to lock on to an enemy mech that is under ghost targeting. With BAP it would only take 5 seconds, with a command console it would only take 4 seconds and with both it would only take three seconds.

This follows with the lore/canon makes ecm more tactical in that you have three settings and eccm counters 1&3 at same time. It also does not make ecm OP, it gives an ecm mech time to break for cover but no longer allows it to wallow around assaults or any other mech for long periods of time unless it wants to die. Thus bringing ecm firmly back into a recon roll instead of a brawling I am immune to ssrm's and LRM's and you can't hurt me roll it currently has.

The reason I say this is ECM is and always has been a recon tool, but currently in MWO it is used for other purposes and is OP as 2 Raven 3L's will always win vs 2 Jenners with the pilots being equal. Even tho the Jenner can be faster and carries the same armament it has no chance vs more than a single raven. Thus making it OP.

Chris

this...is...not...table...top....this...is...the...internet...and...computers...

[Xeanth]

Dreepa, on 20 February 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

You are the minority. The majority says its not fine. At least when we are talking about the people visiting the forums regularily.
Hoever, the poll has nearly up to 1000 votes, so it is probably kinda representative.

http://mwomercs.com/...ture-aftermath/

The funny thing is that MOST of the people who complain about ECM are the same people who used to spam LRM's.

[wwiiogre]

Sorry Funk,

it is OP because it does something that is out of timeline for MWO. Which means it does give an advantage that could have been handled much better but also keeping the ECM as part of recon, which is what it is meant to do. Not allow an unfair adavantage that really only has one counter, bring more ecm than the other team.

In 8 mans I routinely see anywhere from 6-8 ecm equipped mechs every match. Only rarely have I seen 8 mans bring less than 4 and that team was rolled 8-0.

So the real question is can you win a competitive match without it. I want screen shots of some 8 man drops without ecm on your team and show me how you cope with ECM since it is not OP.

And how man competitive matches can you win out of ten.

I generally pilot a Jenner. Which means no ecm, which means if the other team has 2 ecm lights or even 1 ecm light and another light packing streaks. I die horribly if I engage them, since I cannot stop their automatic easy button weapons that always hit my torso or once in a while hit my arms. Either way dead in 3-4 salvos. While I cannot use a streak back at them and must aim my srm's for effect. Which if I do a good job I can usually kill one of the other lights. But if the other pilot is as skilled as I am, I have no chance, cause his shots never miss and always track to CT.

A good way to fix the ssrm problem and missiles in general because of the boating going on would be to go back to random hit locations, in other words, missiles in BT fire like unguided rockets and should not be guidable in any way shape or form. They do not fire like a shotgun and should never have a similar spread pattern or an optimal range where they all bore into same location on target mech.

If ssrm's and lrms and srms all hit random locations, arms/legs/torso/and rarely head then the boating problem is solved and the little streak boats with ecm are less OP since now it will take longer for them to kill another light without ecm since the ssrm's they fire will not always track to CT, but instead spread out over entire mech and take much longer to kill another light. Which makes the game more fun and more tactical and less OP/ECM/EASY BUTTON for the win.

I know it would hurt the feelings of so many unskilled min/max players that they would actually have to learn to play other than take the easy way.

Chris

[Teralitha]

Xeanth, on 20 February 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

The funny thing is that MOST of the people who complain about ECM are the same people who used to spam LRM's.

Actually most of the people that complain about ECM, use ECM, and realize how broken it is.

This topic is redundant. This version of ECM does no good for the game.

Edited by Teralitha, 20 February 2013 - 11:57 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

Xeanth, on 20 February 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

The funny thing is that MOST of the people who complain about ECM are the same people who used to spam LRM's.

If you mean that the people who most complain about ECM are the people who used to provide indirect fire support to their team and now can't because a simple 1.5 ton item makes an entire team immune from attack, you would be correct. An entire section of the playerbase who were looking to set themselves up as team support have had their role in the game eliminated in favor of brawlers, so of course we feel a bit strongly about a magic box (and that is what ECM in its current state is, as -nothing- in BTech ever had such ability).

Now, when LRM users get a 1.5 ton module that allows them to completely nullify all armor on an opposing team simply by having it on their mech, I'm sure you won't mind. That is the level of effect ECM has had on LRMs. Oh, and it's totally balanced, because there are so many ways to counter it. 1) take out the LRM mech. 2) take out the 1.5 ton module on the LRM mech 3) run the 1.5 ton module yourself to remove the other team's armor (if you are in an LRM mech...fair is fair).

Nothing unfair at all, eh?

[Windsaw]

Xeanth, on 20 February 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

The funny thing is that MOST of the people who complain about ECM are the same people who used to spam LRM's.

Why do you think that?
I was a light mech pilot most of my time and I feel like I suffered most from it. Whenever I don't use it. Which I don't do anymore, since it always feels like bugusing.

Edited by Windsaw, 20 February 2013 - 11:44 AM.

[Chunkylad]

Viper69, on 20 February 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

Vassago, you look like a fool jumping on the gold bashing train. Just sayin. Why not start your own trend instead of piggy backing an already ignorant train of thought.

Its ok, those of us who have been here long enough have learned to ignore steiners. You to will learn over time

Edited by Chunkylad, 20 February 2013 - 11:46 AM.

[Commander Kobold]

ECM has 3 *counters* Tag, itself and PPC hits, that's far from plenty especially since only ECM itself is guaranteed sucess. (unless you're shooting PPCs at/Tagging an atlas because that's easy.)

[wwiiogre]

FUNK,

The this is computers argument is pretty lame, how about debating ideas and facts with actual ideas and facts. Not insulting and making delusional statements that have little basis in fact.

First that is intellectually dishonest and has no place in a civil discourse. In a debate if you cannot out think or out talk or outshine your opponent, what happens is you start name calling and throwing poop at a wall hoping something will stick.

Please I think you and Enig could probably put up a rather spirited intellectual debate.

Mech Warrior is a simulation of Battle Tech in a specific year of the canon/lore. Part of the games selling point is the fact the Devs/PGI said they would stick to canon/lore as much as they can.

Current ECM is a departure from canon/lore and is a jump in the timeline. Which means it probably is a bad choice for balance since a weapon or system from the future could not possibly be balanced with anything in the current timeline.

So take a step back, back your statement with something other than its the internet dude. Perhaps you can persuade me to your view of the universe.

Otherwise your statements are pointless and have no credibility. I would prefer you try a much more intellectual approach.

I showed that there are alternatives to the current ECM, I also showed that its not just the ECM causing the problem but how ssrm/srm/lrm fire more like bullets than the unguided rockets they really are. Artemis/Narc are semi guided. SSRM are guided but not to a specific location like they are currently in MWO. I also gave examples of current rules/timeline guide that is lore and also would add more layers to current tactics and get rid of the easy button while making ECM a recon tool, not a dueling/brawling tool.

Just saying, use examples, back up your statements. I can be persuaded by a good argument.

Chris

[Vassago Rain]

Jakob Knight, on 20 February 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

If you mean that the people who most complain about ECM are the people who used to provide indirect fire support to their team and now can't because a simple 1.5 ton item makes an entire team immune from attack, you would be correct. An entire section of the playerbase who were looking to set themselves up as team support have had their role in the game eliminated in favor of brawlers, so of course we feel a bit strongly about a magic box (and that is what ECM in its current state is, as -nothing- in BTech ever had such ability).

Now, when LRM users get a 1.5 ton module that allows them to completely nullify all armor on an opposing team simply by having it on their mech, I'm sure you won't mind. That is the level of effect ECM has had on LRMs. Oh, and it's totally balanced, because there are so many ways to counter it. 1) take out the LRM mech. 2) take out the 1.5 ton module on the LRM mech 3) run the 1.5 ton module yourself to remove the other team's armor (if you are in an LRM mech...fair is fair).

Nothing unfair at all, eh?

I forgot ECM makes it impossible to dumbfire lurms into an area full of slow mechs.

Viper69, on 20 February 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

OP no its not ok. ECM is not what we have in the first place we have an OP version of Angel ECM go look it up.



Vassago, you look like a fool jumping on the gold bashing train. Just sayin. Why not start your own trend instead of piggy backing an already ignorant train of thought.

I started the gold bashing trend. Your new is showing.

[Commander Kobold]

Xeanth, on 20 February 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

The funny thing is that MOST of the people who complain about ECM are the same people who used to spam LRM's.

and most of the people saying it's fine are too stupid to avoid LRMs and use cover/use an AMS

Vassago Rain, on 20 February 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

I forgot ECM makes it impossible to dumbfire lurms into an area full of slow mechs.

If I'm expected to use LRMs effectively by dumb firing them I want them to travel at SRM speed.

[Team Leader]

Does someone have to link to the sarna articles for Guardian ECM, Angel ECM, and Null Signature again? http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite theres what we are talking about. Because the ECM we have now does all those things at the same time. Nowhere does it say that ECM is suppossed to make you 100% untargetable as it is now. If anything, instead of having unlimited range, you should only be effected if you are within the 180 meter bubble like the website says. Get it? The range of ECM is only out to 180 meters, not unlimited range of zero detection. If they had ECM work as it did now, but only if you were within the 180m bubble, it would be balanced. Right now, it effects you at infinite range and cloaks all your buddies for free.

Edited by Team Leader, 20 February 2013 - 11:53 AM.

[K0M3D14N]

I'm still waiting for someone to address why ECM is an issue on anything other than streakboated Lights.

[Clay Pigeon]

As long as guardian (without null sig) is stronger than angel, it is not fine.

[Viper69]

Vassago Rain, on 20 February 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

I started the gold bashing trend. Your new is showing.

since you started it as you claim, why you did and what is the point.

Edited by Viper69, 20 February 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 20 February 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

this...is...not...table...top....this...is...the...internet...and...computers...

then lets toss out mech designs, weapon damage as well with that thinking.
MWO is based on TT. its not about following the TT rules exactly. there is lots of room for interpretation but ECM got mangled.

[Teralitha]

K0M3D14N, on 20 February 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

I'm still waiting for someone to address why ECM is an issue on anything other than streakboated Lights.

ECM is a nerf to situational awareness. A skill, which I was quite good at. Good situational awareness would allow you to get the first hit on enemy mechs, but now ECM allows you to get the first hit, without having any situational awareness skill. Its noob tech.

[Tombstoner]

K0M3D14N, on 20 February 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

I'm still waiting for someone to address why ECM is an issue on anything other than streakboated Lights.

on an atlas i don't think its that big of a deal to be honest. and i hate the current incarnation of ECM. It does provide an LRM shield that can be penetrated with TAG. ECM does increase the survivability of the mech. that's good its supposed to.
infact it gives people a reason to stay together and get killed one by one. so no i don't have an issue with assault only ECM.
stick it on a light and its OP.

[K0M3D14N]

Teralitha, on 20 February 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

ECM is a nerf to situational awareness. A skill, which I was quite good at. Good situational awareness would allow you to get the first hit on enemy mechs, but now ECM allows you to get the first hit, without having any situational awareness skill. Its noob tech.

So what you're telling me is that your 'situational awareness' was the ability to have little red triangles pop up all over your screen and tell you exactly where your enemies are? I think you misunderstand what situational awareness is, my friend. You still have eyes, don't you? Thermal vision? The ability to detect movement? If you get so tunnel visioned by what's directly in front of you that you can't take a second to check your flank or have the ability to sense when you're about to get flanked, you do not possess situational awareness.

You possess the ability to read a map and see red triangles.

Tombstoner, on 20 February 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

on an atlas i don't think its that big of a deal to be honest. and i hate the current incarnation of ECM. It does provide an LRM shield that can be penetrated with TAG. ECM does increase the survivability of the mech. that's good its supposed to.
infact it gives people a reason to stay together and get killed one by one. so no i don't have an issue with assault only ECM.
stick it on a light and its OP.

This thereby goes against the assumption that ECM, in and of itself, is OP does it not? I agree that Lights with ECM are overly powerful, but ONLY because they can be streakboated and streaks, in their current incarnation, require absolutely 0 skill to use at all. You acquire lock and right click your way to victory. What really needs to be changed is the flight model for Streaks.

Edited by K0M3D14N, 20 February 2013 - 12:06 PM.