152 replies to this topic

[Teralitha]

K0M3D14N, on 20 February 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

So what you're telling me is that your 'situational awareness' was the ability to have little red triangles pop up all over your screen and tell you exactly where your enemies are? I think you misunderstand what situational awareness is, my friend. You still have eyes, don't you? Thermal vision? The ability to detect movement? If you get so tunnel visioned by what's directly in front of you that you can't take a second to check your flank or have the ability to sense when you're about to get flanked, you do not possess situational awareness.

You possess the ability to read a map and see red triangles.


This thereby goes against the assumption that ECM, in and of itself, is OP does it not? I agree that Lights with ECM are overly powerful, but ONLY because they can be streakboated and streaks, in their current incarnation, require absolutely 0 skill to use at all. You acquire lock and right click your way to victory. What really needs to be changed is the flight model for Streaks.

And what skill do you possess if your equiping ECM and shooting freely at targets who have no idea where u are? Noobtech, FTW.

I also seem to remember the use of targeting and radar being a problem amongst the noobs.... so yes it is situational awareness skill to incorporate your use of targeting and radar in your decision making. Those who do, are better pilots. ECM is noobtech. Giving an advantage over players who are smart enough to watch their radar and map AS WELL AS THEIR EYES for enemy locations and movements.. It doesnt give them any advantage over noobs though as they are lost to begin with.

You are posting as a troll.

Edited by Teralitha, 20 February 2013 - 02:28 PM.

[Rakashan]

Enig, on 20 February 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

ECM's counters:

• Other ECM
  
• PPC (which also pump out plenty of damage at long range)
  
• Tag (which also functions to expedite missile locks)
  
• Component destruction
  
• Communication (We need built-in VOIP for this to truly be effective)
  
• BAP and Sensor Range to a limited extent

And they have stated here on the forums and on the NGNG podcast that they will continue to integrate systems which will interact and work as counters to ECM and other future electronic warfare packages.


So next time you spout that ECM is too cheap for 1.5 tons, just remember that every counter isn't there JUST to counter ECM, they just so happen to do that as an extra effect.

So, let's see. In terms of game balance we have a module that is countered by... Itself. Oh, and partially by 2 other things (TAG and Adv. Sensors). TAG is the only reasonably counter and it does not counter fully half of the effects of ECM. Adv. Sensors counters about half the effects of ECM and only in a very small area which is difficult to stay in not to mention that it costs 12,500 GXP. BAP does *nothing* to ECM and the fact that you include it here indicates that you are stretching to make yourself feel good.

It can be countered for 5 seconds by PPC fire is the person with ECM is not near any other person with ECM. Right, you know how we scream at PUGs for running off by themselves? How often do you expect to find that RVN-3L all by his lonesome? Can we quit calling this a counter now, please?

I fight ECM mechs all the time and I do well at it. I know how to deal with them and I don't run SSRMs or LRMs very often so don't misunderstand me to be complaining about how ECM works. This is purely a balance statement. It is BAD GAME DESIGN to make an item whose best counter is itself (and that's the case now, even after the PPC/Adv. Sensors changes). It is even worse to make that device more effective than anything similar (ECM vs. AMS) and worse still to make it easier to use than its proposed counters (ECM vs. TAG).

How many people do you know who run a RVN that is not a 3L for any reason other than unlocking mastery of their RVN-3L? What about Commandos? How much more often do you see a D-DC than any other type of Atlas. The fact that ECM is more important than any other information about a given chassis (hardpoints, engine size, etc.) is the hint that this is OP.

Look at it in simpler terms. You remember the platyground game Rock-Paper-Scissors? You remember how often you played it with the guy who kept trying to throw "Dynamite"?

If ECM weighed 8 tons (the weight of all the things it turned off). If it cost 15,000 GXP to use it. If it required that the user actually target mechs to affect them (the way TAG does). If it required *anything* beyond the decision to actually bring the mech, then it might be balanced. It might be good design. As it is, not good design.

I don't need the functionality of ECM nerfed. I'd be just fine if it took 2-3 Module slots and 15-20,000 GXP to make it do all the things it does today.

You can drive any HBK you want. People will suggest that you pick the one that suits your playstyle. The day you can drive any RVN you want without being asked why it is not a 3L will be the day that ECM is balanced. That's the definition of balance.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

Tombstoner, on 20 February 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

then lets toss out mech designs, weapon damage as well with that thinking.
MWO is based on TT. its not about following the TT rules exactly. there is lots of room for interpretation but ECM got mangled.

go play dungeons and dragons online. They have to change some of the table top rules for the online game also. Some table top rules just don't fit in to the digital world. Go play table top in a digital age if the digital age upsets you.

[Karr285]

Here is a thought that fixes Steaks with ECM and doesn't change any balance. ECM on disrupt means they cant log on you, And you CANNOT lock onto other either. Done fixed.
want to shoot streaks turn your ECM off

[Khobai]

Quote

Fixed that for ya. Streaks are only a problem when carried in mass. Most Canon Mech had one or two at most.

no. streaks are a problem because they automatically hit when they shouldnt. it makes running any light mech without ecm complete suicide which completely dumbfounds me. I cant believe that PGI would want players only running Commando-2Ds and Raven-3Ls.

Edited by Khobai, 20 February 2013 - 03:18 PM.

[Thuzel]

Rakashan, on 20 February 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

So, let's see. In terms of game balance we have a module that is countered by... Itself. Oh, and partially by 2 other things (TAG and Adv. Sensors). TAG is the only reasonably counter and it does not counter fully half of the effects of ECM. Adv. Sensors counters about half the effects of ECM and only in a very small area which is difficult to stay in not to mention that it costs 12,500 GXP. BAP does *nothing* to ECM and the fact that you include it here indicates that you are stretching to make yourself feel good.

It can be countered for 5 seconds by PPC fire is the person with ECM is not near any other person with ECM. Right, you know how we scream at PUGs for running off by themselves? How often do you expect to find that RVN-3L all by his lonesome? Can we quit calling this a counter now, please?

I fight ECM mechs all the time and I do well at it. I know how to deal with them and I don't run SSRMs or LRMs very often so don't misunderstand me to be complaining about how ECM works. This is purely a balance statement. It is BAD GAME DESIGN to make an item whose best counter is itself (and that's the case now, even after the PPC/Adv. Sensors changes). It is even worse to make that device more effective than anything similar (ECM vs. AMS) and worse still to make it easier to use than its proposed counters (ECM vs. TAG).

How many people do you know who run a RVN that is not a 3L for any reason other than unlocking mastery of their RVN-3L? What about Commandos? How much more often do you see a D-DC than any other type of Atlas. The fact that ECM is more important than any other information about a given chassis (hardpoints, engine size, etc.) is the hint that this is OP.

Look at it in simpler terms. You remember the platyground game Rock-Paper-Scissors? You remember how often you played it with the guy who kept trying to throw "Dynamite"?

If ECM weighed 8 tons (the weight of all the things it turned off). If it cost 15,000 GXP to use it. If it required that the user actually target mechs to affect them (the way TAG does). If it required *anything* beyond the decision to actually bring the mech, then it might be balanced. It might be good design. As it is, not good design.

I don't need the functionality of ECM nerfed. I'd be just fine if it took 2-3 Module slots and 15-20,000 GXP to make it do all the things it does today.

You can drive any HBK you want. People will suggest that you pick the one that suits your playstyle. The day you can drive any RVN you want without being asked why it is not a 3L will be the day that ECM is balanced. That's the definition of balance.

QFT

Short answer:
ECM is fine but it needs to weigh more or require modules for the functions it has right now.

[Enig]

Khobai, on 20 February 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

no. streaks are a problem because they automatically hit when they shouldnt. it makes running any light mech without ecm complete suicide which completely dumbfounds me. I cant believe that PGI would want players only running Commando-2Ds and Raven-3Ls.

I run a TDK with overwhelming success.

[DocBach]

Thuzel, on 20 February 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

QFT

Short answer:
ECM is fine but it needs to weigh more or require modules for the functions it has right now.

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[Rakashan]

Khobai, on 20 February 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

no. streaks are a problem because they automatically hit when they shouldnt. it makes running any light mech without ecm complete suicide which completely dumbfounds me. I cant believe that PGI would want players only running Commando-2Ds and Raven-3Ls.

Errmm... Streaks seriously limit your damage output if you are capable of hitting with anything else. At the range of scout duels, you can do 150% more DPH and even more DPS using other SRMs. Streaks are a crutch which can and should be discarded by anyone serious about hunting ECM mechs which is why I don't care if it is possible to get the effects of ECM somehow. The point is to make the choice to carry ECM expensive enough that it is a choice, not a no-brainer.

[Thuzel]

DocBach, on 20 February 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Great ideas.

The only thing that concerns me is that PGI might try to "balance" ECM by just giving us modules for BAP without requiring modules for ECM's current functionality.

-- Edit --

Which is part of what you said, I'm just paraphrasing for simplicity.

Edited by Thuzel, 20 February 2013 - 03:42 PM.

[DocBach]

Thuzel, on 20 February 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Great ideas.

The only thing that concerns me is that PGI might try to "balance" ECM by just giving us modules for BAP without requiring modules for ECM's current functionality.

-- Edit --

Which is part of what you said, I'm just paraphrasing for simplicity.

Pretty much, all the advanced sensor modules, 360 targeting, ect. are actually features that Beagle is suppose to have. Instead of giving them to Beagle, they've turned them into modules that don't require Beagle, and charge GXP for them.

A method of balance could be to make modules increase the effectiveness of specific equipment, like a pilot skill specializing in a certain area of piloting. IE, sensor modules should require Beagle, electronic warfare modules require ECM, specific modules increasing the effectiveness of ballistics, energy, missile weapons, ect.

[Khobai]

Quote

Errmm... Streaks seriously limit your damage output if you are capable of hitting with anything else.

Which is why you run in wolfpacks of light mechs.

This is my merccorp playing against the NGNG crew and Garth yesterday. We got matched up against them in two games (the first game starts at around 13:00 and the second game ends at around 27:00)

http://www.twitch.tv/igp/b/369182768

We were running a pack of 3 light mechs and completely terrorizing the enemy team and there was NOTHING they could do about it. So yes, individually lights do little damage, but when you have 2-3 lights attacking you with coordination you tend to drop very fast.

Quote

Streaks are a crutch which can and should be discarded by anyone serious about hunting ECM mechs

You couldn't be more wrong. Streaks may be a crutch for some players, but other players know how to use them. Streaks have advantages that no other weapons in the game have. For example, torso mounted streaks, use the arm reticle for locking-on... so they essentially fire as arm-mounted weapons. What other weapon has that ability? And that's an ability that can very much be abused/exploited because I can run above or below someone and shoot them with ALL my weapons while they can only shoot me back with arm weapons because their torso can't pitch that high or low. Sometimes they don't even have arm weapons because they're in a mech like a K2 and I just rip them apart while they struggle to get me in their torso reticles (K2s have the worst torso pitch in the game and generally have no arm weapons).

It my personal belief that Streaks are way too strong. I feel PGI needs to nerf Streaks first. And then after they nerf Streaks they need to wait a little while to see how it affects the metagame and whether or not ECM still needs a nerf.

Edited by Khobai, 20 February 2013 - 04:15 PM.

[IceCase88]

Hekalite, on 20 February 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

The list of items that counter ECM is much shorter than the list of items that ECM counters. that's why it is cheap for 1.5- tons.

Can you count? I am not trying to be mean because it is a legitimate question. ECM has 3 counters... 1, 2, 3. ECM, TAG, and PPCs. You can actually say it has 5 if you include component destruction and mech destruction. ECM only affects 2 weapons. 1, 2. SSRMs and LRMs. LRMs are just as abundant, and effective, as they were when I started playing in November. ECM does not counter ACs, Gauss, lasers, ppcs, flamers, mgs, and SRMs. Of the 9 different weapon types it only affects 2 weapons. Just 2. Only 2. If you want to count each weapon individually your argument gets even weaker that it is OP.

ECM works as intended and according TT. You can quote total warfare all you want but the fact is it just says ECM suite and not Guardian ECM Suite. Is it referring to the Liao ECM suite which weighed 7 tons or the GECM? You cannot answer that question. You can only assume.

In closing... I love the it is OP because it only weighs 1.5 tons which is the dumbest attempt at an argument ever. Size is irrelevant. If you want to argue it costs too little than that is more of a valid argument or maybe it should be reserved for a module slot when you master a mech class. However that would deny new players of its use. Those of you against ECM are a vocal minority but a minority nonetheless. Most of you are probably ssrm boaters or lrm boaters. Build a balanced mech and L2P and you will be fine.

[DocBach]

IceCase88, on 20 February 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

Can you count? I am not trying to be mean because it is a legitimate question. ECM has 3 counters... 1, 2, 3. ECM, TAG, and PPCs. You can actually say it has 5 if you include component destruction and mech destruction. ECM only affects 2 weapons. 1, 2. SSRMs and LRMs. LRMs are just as abundant, and effective, as they were when I started playing in November. ECM does not counter ACs, Gauss, lasers, ppcs, flamers, mgs, and SRMs. Of the 9 different weapon types it only affects 2 weapons. Just 2. Only 2. If you want to count each weapon individually your argument gets even weaker that it is OP.

ECM works as intended and according TT. You can quote total warfare all you want but the fact is it just says ECM suite and not Guardian ECM Suite. Is it referring to the Liao ECM suite which weighed 7 tons or the GECM? You cannot answer that question. You can only assume.

In closing... I love the it is OP because it only weighs 1.5 tons which is the dumbest attempt at an argument ever. Size is irrelevant. If you want to argue it costs too little than that is more of a valid argument or maybe it should be reserved for a module slot when you master a mech class. However that would deny new players of its use. Those of you against ECM are a vocal minority but a minority nonetheless. Most of you are probably ssrm boaters or lrm boaters. Build a balanced mech and L2P and you will be fine.

Can you count all the other systems besides missiles that it counters ie radar, Artemis, Narc, Beagle, information sharing, IFF? The rules from Total Warfare encompass the effects for both Clan ECM and Guardian ECM, because in the game have the same function, and has nothing to do with the experimental ECM. Even in the expanded rule sets like Tactical Operations ECM doesn't have this much of an affect. Polls in the community show the majority of players dislike ECM.

Pretty much, your whole post is completely wrong.

Edited by DocBach, 20 February 2013 - 05:07 PM.

[Vasces Diablo]

It's getting better. Still not thrilled that there is no" cost of use" for ECM (like heat generation for example).

Every piece if equipment needs cost of use or some type of trade off to equip/use.

[Adrian Steel]

Enig, on 20 February 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

ECM's counters:

• Other ECM

That's nice.

Move along forum citizens. There are no problems with ECM. Nothing to see here.

[Kyone Akashi]

Karr285, on 20 February 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

Here is a thought that fixes Steaks with ECM and doesn't change any balance. ECM on disrupt means they cant log on you, And you CANNOT lock onto other either. Done fixed. want to shoot streaks turn your ECM off

The problem with this proposed solution would be that it just leads to the ECM-user toggling his Guardian-suite off just long enough to fire his own SSRMs, and re-activate it immediately after they launched.

It's what they do already when fighting other 2Ds or 3Ls. See OP's other thread for details (ironically, it seems as whenever two ECM-Mech's fight each other, Streaks suddenly become "unfair").

Just make it like it works in the tabletop. Let Streaks ignore ECM so that at least everyone is allowed to use what I deem the currently best weapon for killing off Lights. Then we can begin balancing SSRM flight behavior, when the 2D and 3L users will "surprisingly" change their opinion about what is fine and what isn't. Less resistance that way.

[IceCase88]

DocBach, on 20 February 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

Can you count all the other systems besides missiles that it counters ie radar, Artemis, Narc, Beagle, information sharing, IFF? The information Total Warfare encompasses the rules for both Clan ECM and Guardian ECM, which in the game have the same effect, and has nothing to do with the experimental ECM. Even in the expanded rule sets like Tactical Operations ECM doesn't have this much of an affect. Polls in the community show the majority of players dislike ECM.

Pretty much, your whole post is completely wrong.

That is odd because it does not state it encompasses clan and IS so it is just an assumption. Additionally, what years in TT does it encompass?

Of course ECM affects those systems because that is what Electronic Countermeasures do. ECM would be rather pointless if everything it is supposed to affect counters it. Again, 3 counters for sometuing that affects 2 weapons. Plenty of balance but since you guys cry for balance everyone must use the same trial mech on each map for each month until the trial mech is changed and then everyone will have to use the new mech. Mech customization and the mech lab is OP. MWO will be like stock car racing now. All the equipment is the same so no one has an advantage. The only thing that can be purchased is cockpit items until you guys claim the hula girl is OP. The last poll I saw said ECM was fine by a wide margin against the zillion of other choices. Plus, as stated, the forums represent only a small percentage of the gaming population.

[DocBach]

IceCase88, on 20 February 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

That is odd because it does not state it encompasses clan and IS so it is just an assumption. Additionally, what years in TT does it encompass?

Of course ECM affects those systems because that is what Electronic Countermeasures do. ECM would be rather pointless if everything it is supposed to affect counters it. Again, 3 counters for sometuing that affects 2 weapons. Plenty of balance but since you guys cry for balance everyone must use the same trial mech on each map for each month until the trial mech is changed and then everyone will have to use the new mech. Mech customization and the mech lab is OP. MWO will be like stock car racing now. All the equipment is the same so no one has an advantage. The only thing that can be purchased is cockpit items until you guys claim the hula girl is OP. The last poll I saw said ECM was fine by a wide margin against the zillion of other choices. Plus, as stated, the forums represent only a small percentage of the gaming population.

I guess you must be right. Because Total Warfare, the base rulebook for all of Battletech of all eras, doesn't clearly specify that the rules for ECM is specifically for Guardian ECM, I guess that no actual rules for Guardian ECM exist.


As for "ECM" (Guess not Guardian ECM, since it's never clarified) affecting missiles and sensors according to the boardgame rules, here's a couple of things that Paul, one of the writers of Catalyst had to say about ECM when I asked him:

"ECM does not affect LRM Indirect Fire or Streak in any way, shape or form.
Angel ECM can disable Streak's ability to lock on."

"In order for ECM to have an effect in Doubleblind rules, the affected unit must be within the ECM's bubble. It is not sufficient for an ECM bubble to be in line of sight."

So, from the developers of Battletech, ECM is not suppose to affect missiles at all, and to have your sensors disrupted (ie Doubleblind rules), you have to actually be inside the ECM's bubble of effect.

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

That poll might be a little different than the one you saw, though I admit that only 981 votes is probably a small sliver to what the polls you saw probably had, and probably nowhere near representational of active users. I also admit that the poll I'm linking to has biased and leading answers for you to choose unlike any of the other polls I've seen floating around, which have been completely fair and even.

Edited by DocBach, 20 February 2013 - 05:33 PM.

[IceCase88]

I will agree with you that LRMs should be able to indirect fire and SSRMs should be able to function like SRMs. You will get no objections from me on that but that is not what the majority of anti-ECM people want. They want unfettered use of both as guided missiles with lock-on ability. You should be able to indirect fire LRMs by placing the targetting reticle on the enemy and fire when it turns red causing the LRMs to "lock-on" to the coordinates but not the mech. That makes sense and everyone will agree to these updates.

I would also like to dispel the myth that SSRMs auto hit. They do not. I have seen them hit buildings, hills, other obstacles, friendly mechs, and other enemy mechs on many occasions. I have also received hits fromSSRMs to other torso parts and arms. Not just the CT torso.