152 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

Did you misread it? LRM's and Streaks are not suppose to be affected at all.

If LRM's are not suppose to be affected by ECM, why would I agree with you and say it makes sense to have ECM reduce LRM's to just the ability to dumb fire LRM's to an area location?

We have AMS and hard cover to deal with missiles. ECM as an anti-missile system is the result of PGI's laziness to fix problems individually.

Edited by DocBach, 20 February 2013 - 06:16 PM.

[IceCase88]

Real world missiles are affected by ECM so it is reasonable to infer a millenia later ECM would still be able to affect missiles. Additionally, if radar is affected by ECM how exactly would a missile lock-on? Magic? Furthermore, targeting system is a vague term because modern day artillery use targeting systems and they are not direct fire. It is also reasonable to infer that 31st century computers can target coordinates and launch missiles to that spot. If LRMs are able to dumbfire then they would not be affected by ECM. Currently they are because they fly harmless into the ground in front of you or fly off into the distance to explode in the air.

Remember science fiction has some basis in science and fact. The fiction comes from using unproven ideas and theories. It reasonable to take modern equipment and project characteristics onto it a 1,000 years from now.

I am sorry if ECMinterferes with your playstyle but it does not affect the vast majority of players. You must adapt and L2P. It is not OP as it only affects 2 weapons and it has 3 counters. Pretty balanced. Not OP. Very reasonable.

[DocBach]

Hmmm. Good point. Guess since ECM works against missiles in the real world, the writers of Battletech could never have explained that ECM has no effect on missiles in their description of missiles in their books?

"First introduced in 2400 by the Terran Hegemony, Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these missiles are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve this range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS."

Oh wait, the writers decided that in the future, missiles were made to function even in environments spammed with ECM. Go figure.

Don't assume that because I can see equipment as being broken that I am defeated by it or stereotype me as a player who can't play or adapt to this game -- I maintain a decent kill/death ratio, and I've never been an LRM boater, in fact, I've stripped LRM's off every one of my 'Mech's when I buy them since I got into closed beta last May. I've never used Streak missiles, because their damage is ineffective for their tonnage and I can hold my sights on a target well enough to use regular SRM's.

ECM has literally unchanged my playstyle. I still can see that it's an unbalanced mechanic. If we're going to generalize based on stance on ECM, and the fact that you bring up missiles almost every post, I'm going to go out on a limb and say you were one of the many players that couldn't adapt or use AMS as a counter to missiles. You probably really like how ECM lets you charge right in the open without fear of them.

Edited by DocBach, 20 February 2013 - 07:02 PM.

[Rakashan]

IceCase88, on 20 February 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

I am sorry if ECMinterferes with your playstyle but it does not affect the vast majority of players. You must adapt and L2P. It is not OP as it only affects 2 weapons and it has 3 counters. Pretty balanced. Not OP. Very reasonable.

Did you even read my post?

The day it affects 2 weapons and nothing else I might be fine with it. It also affects IFF, lock-sharing, the ability to read enemy armor and aim at specific parts of the mech and the ability to get hardpoint layouts. Now, maybe you don't use any of that information about your opponents when you drive, but I and a lot of other people do.

And as for counters, it has itself plus two others and of those ECM is the best counter both most effective (as it completely counters instead of only partially countering) and it is the easiest to use since it doesn't require maintaining a target lock like TAG does.

So yeah, until the day that people say "Oh, a RVN-2X, cool," not "Oh, a RVN-2X. How close are you to finishing so you can drive your 3L" ECM will be imbalanced. (And feel free to insert CDA, COM or AS7 in there as you see fit.)

[IceCase88]

DocBach, on 20 February 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

Hmmm. Good point. Guess since ECM works against missiles in the real world, the writers of Battletech could never have explained that ECM has no effect on missiles in their description of missiles in their books?

"First introduced in 2400 by the Terran Hegemony, Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these missiles are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve this range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS."

Oh wait, the writers decided that in the future, missiles were made to function even in environments spammed with ECM. Go figure.

Don't assume that because I can see equipment as being broken that I am defeated by it or stereotype me as a player who can't play or adapt to this game -- I maintain a decent kill/death ratio, and I've never been an LRM boater, in fact, I've stripped LRM's off every one of my 'Mech's when I buy them since I got into closed beta last May. I've never used Streak missiles, because their damage is ineffective for their tonnage and I can hold my sights on a target well enough to use regular SRM's.

ECM has literally unchanged my playstyle. I still can see that it's an unbalanced mechanic. If we're going to generalize based on stance on ECM, and the fact that you bring up missiles almost every post, I'm going to go out on a limb and say you were one of the many players that couldn't adapt or use AMS as a counter to missiles. You probably really like how ECM lets you charge right in the open without fear of them.

Ah yes... however scientists in the 31st century could not build ECM to stop missiles. Interesting.... lol

[Kyone Akashi]

IceCase88, on 20 February 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Ah yes... however scientists in the 31st century could not build ECM to stop missiles. Interesting.... lol

They can. But that's called Angel ECM, not Guardian.

"ECM" isn't a general term for some mythical device that locks down any and all electronics.
All BattleMechs have ECM and ECCM by default - you just don't realize it because it happens mostly in the background. It's an arms race, and an ECM suite needs to be sufficiently advanced to overcome the innate ECCM that are specifically designed to protect equipment from being tampered with by outside influence.

Just like you can put a Guardian suite on "disrupt" mode, if you want an ingame example from MWO.

[Red squirrel]

IceCase88, on 20 February 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Ah yes... however scientists in the 31st century could not build ECM to stop missiles. Interesting.... lol

You are entering dangerous terrain....but I'd say those same scientists you are referring to are not able to build missles that fly further than 1000m.

Edited by Red squirrel, 20 February 2013 - 11:58 PM.

[Brilig]

I think BAP could defiantly use some more utility V.S. ECM. Not a full counter to ECM, but let it do something against it.

[Rift Hawk]

Enig, on 20 February 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

ECM's counters:

• Other ECM
  
• PPC (which also pump out plenty of damage at long range)
  
• Tag (which also functions to expedite missile locks)
  
• Component destruction
  
• Communication (We need built-in VOIP for this to truly be effective)
  
• BAP and Sensor Range to a limited extent

And they have stated here on the forums and on the NGNG podcast that they will continue to integrate systems which will interact and work as counters to ECM and other future electronic warfare packages.


So next time you spout that ECM is too cheap for 1.5 tons, just remember that every counter isn't there JUST to counter ECM, they just so happen to do that as an extra effect.

Your fired.

[Sanreal]

All light mechs run ECM and Streaks, or they die to them. That's how balanced (not) ECM and Streaks are.

[Lykaon]

K0M3D14N, on 20 February 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

Tell me why ECM is an issue on anything but a Raven 3L or a Commando 2D. By all means, enlighten me.

Ok I will take a stab at this.

ECM is an issue because this one small inexpencive and easy to fit item impacts on nearly every aspect of game play and metagame play.

No other "feature" has as much influence exerted upon such a broad area.

ECM impacts chassis selection.
Since ECM is only available on certain chassis a player who wishes to use ECM has a very limited selection of chassis.To increase the influence of ECM on chassis selection the significant advantages granted by ECM encourage ECM use and in fact encourage stacking multiple ECM mechs on a team.This has a negative impact on variety.

ECM impacts mech loadouts.
Since ECM effectivley turns off the lock on mechanic do you risk using LRMs or Streaks? Since ECM is countered by TAG or PPCs do you load those up on the mech?ECM impacts what weapons players select.

ECM impacts module selection.
If a player wishes to mitigate ECM effects they will need to set module priority on those that feature counter ECM features above modules that would better suit their play styles.

ECM impacts how we spend our XP.
Do we use our GXP on chassis efficencies or do we unlock counter ECM modules?If you wish to counter ECM you set priority on modules over mech mastery.

ECM impacts team composition.
When selecting an 8 man team concideration must be made for ECM.Do you have enough ECM? Do you have sufficent counters for enemy ECM.There is a reason why most 8 man premades have 50% or higher ECM mechs.

ECM impacts strategic planning.
How much ECM is desired to maintain ECM dominance?How best to employ counter ECM techniques?How many and of what type of ECM mech do you use?How do you deploy these ECM mechs on a battlefield?

ECM impacts tactical choices.
How do you manuver your ECM or manuver with ECM to gain maximized effects?How do you manuver to employ counter ECM techniques.How do you fit these manuvers into team play,Clump around one ECM? Bring multiple ECM for wider formations?When selecting target priority do you set enemy ECM as high priority? Shoot the Atlas DDC or the Stalker?

Should 400k C-bills 1.5 tons 2 crits have this much power to influence our game play?


If you didn't like that explaination try this one.

Mechwarrior online as stated by it's development team is to be built upon four design pillars.

Mech warfare: Mechs shooting mechs
Role warfare: using the right mech for the job
Information warfare: Controling intel by effective recon or effective evasion/deception
Community Warfare: Players joining factions and battling for their faction's victory.

So Mech warfare with our current ECM is essentially reduced to fill 6 of 8 slots with ECM mechs and the remaining 2 with a couple of FotM DPS monsters like splatcats or 6 PPC stalkers.You need more ECM to ensure ECM domminance and any non ECM mech better be good at spike damage because ECM "cloaks" entire teams of mechs giving limited windows of opertunity to dish out damage.

Now Role warfare,This is essentially rendered down to role 1: Atlas with ECM role 2: Raven with ECM role 3: Spike damage mech with no ECM (and let's be honest there are about 4-5 variences of this theme and not much else for variety)

Information warfare has been transformed into a joke.The entirety of information warfare can be fought passivley by stacking tons of ECM.ECM does all the work for you without the need to manuver well,pay attention or even press a key.Just bring enough ECM to ensure that some of it is in play at any given time.It is pretty much impossible for your enemy to hit all 8 mechs with a TAG or PPC every 4 seconds so 8 ECM on a side invalidates TAG and PPCs and unless the enemy also has 8 ECM mechs set to counter AND all within 180m of all of your 8 ECMs...well you get the picture.Information warfare has become ECM warfare.

Community warfare will of course be a meta game of who has the ability to maximize ECM dominance or who has effective counter ECM strategies.As is currently the case the majority of competitive teams stack on average 5-6 ECM in 8 man groups.

None of the above effects on the four design pillars of the game are desireable.All ECM does is limit choices and pigeon hole strategy and tactics.


Those look like valid reasons for why ECM is an issue?

[jakucha]

Only problem with the PPC counter is it's pretty difficult to hit fast light mechs with it, consistently. As for component destruction, did they patch that in yet for ECM? If they haven't, ECMs only die when the mech does.

Edited by jakucha, 21 February 2013 - 01:50 AM.

[Icemantas]

Red squirrel, on 20 February 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

You are entering dangerous terrain....but I'd say those same scientists you are referring to are not able to build missles that fly further than 1000m.

Where is my rear view mirror?

[Fate 6]

K0M3D14N, on 20 February 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

The majority is also completely uneducated on why ECM is an issue. It isn't an issue. It's a symptom. They see these ECM Lights (Raven 3Ls, COM-2Ds) and assume taht ECM is the problem with them. It isn't.

Streaks are.

ECM makes the problem worse though, since lights with ECM can use streaks against slower mechs that can't return fire with theirs.

ECM is a really poor bandage for issues with LRM and SSRMs, but ECM is still stupidly good even if NOBODY in the game has SSRMs or LRMs. Information warfare is still really damn good. Not knowing who's an enemy, where the enemy is, or what the enemy mech's status is (armor/weapons) all make it extremely difficult to effectively engage. All of this for only 1.5 tons (and that's ignoring the missile shield).

[Lykaon]

Fate 6, on 21 February 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

ECM makes the problem worse though, since lights with ECM can use streaks against slower mechs that can't return fire with theirs.

ECM is a really poor bandage for issues with LRM and SSRMs, but ECM is still stupidly good even if NOBODY in the game has SSRMs or LRMs. Information warfare is still really damn good. Not knowing who's an enemy, where the enemy is, or what the enemy mech's status is (armor/weapons) all make it extremely difficult to effectively engage. All of this for only 1.5 tons (and that's ignoring the missile shield).

You left out the part about how ECM also prevents you from knowing where your friendlies are and therefore also how to best support your friendlies.
ECM does a heck of a lot more than deny intel about you to them it also denies info about them to them.

[IceCase88]

Good thing S@ddam Hussein's armed forces, or the Taliban, didn't complain about the US armed forces being too powerful! It would've have been classic to see S@ddam complaining how the US's ECM would not let his SAMs hit the US fighter planes.

All of you QQing about ECM are in for a rude awakening when the Clans come with their better weapons. Nerf everything! We must have balance and order everywhere! pffffft... L2P or pack your marbles up. Whiniest group of players ever.

Edited by IceCase88, 21 February 2013 - 02:58 AM.

[Thirdstar]

IceCase88, on 21 February 2013 - 02:55 AM, said:

Good thing ****** Hussein's armed forces, or the Taliban, didn't complain about the US armed forces being too powerful! It would've have been classic to see ****** complaining how the US's ECM would not let his SAMs hit the US fighter planes. Nerf everything! We must have balance and order everywhere! pffffft... L2P

Whut? Put down the bong man and step away from the keyboard.

[Karl Streiger]

I would like to say: Yes it is possible to counter ECM. Its even easy from time to time.
But that it is even necessary to counter ECM - to work properly shows that it is not fine

[Inertiaman]

Yeah I'm fairly sure both the Iraqi armed forces and Afghanistan's militia complained quite a lot. And still are. That post is literally hilarious. Machinegunning ME hotels full of western guests? Pretty sure that's complaining. Leading a ten year insurgency campaign against the occupying troops and civilians? Yeah that's complaining for sure.

I second the recommendation vis a vis the bong.

[Lykaon]

Skinny Pete, on 20 February 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

Why, what's it stopping you from doing? Firing the two most noob friendly weapons in the game? Wait, you can counter it, tag it and PPC it.

Noob friendly? I will give you streaks as a noobgun but LRMs are an important counter to a certain very popular A1 catapult or K2 catapult build that we all see in droves.

Would we be seeing swarms of 6X SRM6 A1s or twin AC20 K2s if they actually had to be concerned about getting into killing range? Without any fear of sustaining damage these builds are free to lurk in cover under ECM "cloak" to wantenly kill because someone took the paper out of paper rock scissors.

Would poptartaphracts be so popular if a salvo of LRMs would be following them down into cover after they pop?

Counter with TAG or a PPC? The ECM is a passive effect that simply works.Does not need to be accuratley aimed at moving targets or take up a weapon hardpoint like TAG (that does no damage yet uses an energy hardpoint) or require significant tonnage and heat concerns like the PPCs.
The best counter for ECM is still STACK MORE ECM! I don't need to hit a target with ECM it just works.It will effect enemy ECM through cover unlike TAG and PPCs that require LOS and to hit.Players will always gravitate towards the easyer solution to a problem and that easy solution is bring more ECM.

Worried about PPCs taking down ECM? Bring more ECM they can't hit all of us every 4 seconds with PPCs hell we have 8 ECMs bring it on! TAG? Try using that TAG when the entirety of the enemy has ECM someone will be within 180m of TAGing enemies preventing target data sharing.Enemy ECM? did they bring 8? no? Switch to counter mode and passivley pierce the enemy ECM no need to hit a target with TAG or PPCs.

Is that the evolution of meta play we want to see?

I fear that this is the road we are all going down.Every patch developers expend effort and resources on adding new anti ECM features.They are laboring to force an entire game system around one single support item.

Would it have been simpler to adjust ECM features rather than...

Limit ECM to certain chassis to reduce it's potentially over powered effects.

Alter TAG to counter ECM sensor jamming,twice (once to add the counter feature a second to exstend TAG range)

Add modules to mitigate ECM sensor jamming effects.

Add a disrupt effect to PPCs to counter ECM.

Whatever is next because it has been stated that future plans to improve ECM counters are in the works (so more time/resources applied to jamming ECM's square peg into mechwarrior online's round hole)

Let's just look at this objectivley and see that ECM is the issue not EVERYTHING ELSE!

Edited by Lykaon, 21 February 2013 - 03:13 AM.