41 replies to this topic

[shintakie]

Team Leader, on 20 February 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

Heck at this point I don't even care. If machine guns could do 1 DPS, that's a MAX of 4 damage from a full machine gun build, under 90 meters, with them constantly firing. Other weapons get huge holes in their DPS because of reload and recharge times, as well as heat. This "artificially" chops their DPS. Machine guns don't have that. Their damage translates into pure DPS, 1 second on target is a second of damage.

You have to be pointing at the guy from 90 meters away and hold down those buttons on one spot. Based on the way the bullets spray everywhere, I don't think a 2 DPS machine gun would even be that much of a threat. Sure, a spider might be able to peel some armor off the back of an inattentive atlas, but he has to be standing still and inch away. A Phracht charging into battle with 4 MGs isn't even a real threat. I say we cut ammo to 500 a ton, make MGs fire the same speed (slower, faster, I dunno beta it), and give them a DPS of 2. Lets try this guys. Forget this imaginary crit stuff, forget range increases, just let the machine gun do damage like its supposed to.

Also, I'm very tempted to break the taboo and like my own post because I think that's one of my best posts on this forum ever and I think it will really bring some variety to the game.

I have to point out again, MG's already have terrible damage per ton of ammo. Abysmal damage per ton of ammo. Its illogical to buff it so its useful and then summarily nerf it by artificially inflatin the weight of it with ammo.

[hashinshin]

Needs to be 2 DPS at least, 3 is what I'd like. It's a low range weapon that needs to be held sustained over an enemy 100% of the time. Even medium lasers have more leniency.

It's also more dangerous than lasers due to having ammo, running out of ammo, ammo blowing up, space required for ammo, etc.

Edited by hashinshin, 21 February 2013 - 05:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Team Leader, on 20 February 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Its been said that in TT MGs did the same damage as AC2s. I would like to see MGs doing the same DPS, or at least 2 damage a second. Reduce the ammo per ton and make them actually do damage... not .04 damage per bullet. Thats a joke.

So you want a Machine gun to do the same damage per turn as a AC2, AC10 and AC20? Those three weapons all do 40 damage per turn? A 0.5 ton weapon equal to that? No. improved, yes. But More than 16 damage per turn from a 0.5 ton weapon is overkill.

[Ineffigy]

I don't know what you guys are complaining about. With the latest patch, I've reserved places for MG on every mech that can carry one. MGs crit so often now people will need to move to all energy builds to avoid an early death. The trick is to hold your Mgs back until you expose an armor section. My 4x uses 2 AC/10s and 2 Mgs and it works very well in combination. A CT can only sustain 15 Pts of crit dmg. Mgs crit 46% of the time for a minimum of .5 damage a bullet. That's 5 crits a second on average for 2.5 CDPS, it's still 7 seconds but with a couple AC/10s hitting, if one of them crit (46% of the time) then you only need 2 seconds of 1 MGs sustained fire. But wait, I have 2 MGs! So I only need 3-4 seconds without an AC/10 crit and 1 second with an AC/10 crit. Brings down Atlas's faster.

[Comassion]

hashinshin, on 21 February 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Needs to be 2 DPS at least, 3 is what I'd like. It's a low range weapon that needs to be held sustained over an enemy 100% of the time. Even medium lasers have more leniency.

It's also more dangerous than lasers due to having ammo, running out of ammo, ammo blowing up, space required for ammo, etc.

3 DPS is far too powerful. It'd be easy to make a 4 MG spider, and now that's 12 DPS (Toss on an Medium Pulse laser for a bit more - 13.6 DPS). The nastiest light 'mech I can currently compare that to is a 6 Medium Laser Jenner, which does 7.5 DPS and has heat issues - the Spider can fire all day long. In the hands of a reasonably skilled pilot, It'll tear up anything on the battlefield. Being hit for all of 3 seconds is the same damage you'd take from dual AC/20's, and nothing's going to stand up to that for long.

Edited by Comassion, 21 February 2013 - 06:22 AM.

[JimSuperBleeder]

Team Leader, on 20 February 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Its been said that in TT MGs did the same damage as AC2s. I would like to see MGs doing the same DPS, or at least 2 damage a second. Reduce the ammo per ton and make them actually do damage... not .04 damage per bullet. Thats a joke.

When they crit it's like .08 dmg!

[MaddMaxx]

Team Leader, on 20 February 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Like seriously theres no reason that they have to be this way, so why have they intentionally been designed to suck horribly? The crit buff is no good... any other weapon will kill the exposed components even faster. Seriously.

Name one (1) weapon that can crit seek with LESS Heat?

FireEater222, on 20 February 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

I dissagree with the OP. I like the noise too but don't see any reason why you can't choose another weapon for that 3pts you want, like perhaps a small laser that takes just as much weight, two less slots and is basically the same heat even I believe.
Leave MGs the annoyance and armorless crit machine it has been.

The Small laser has 200% more Heat than a MG.

[Ineffigy]

JimSuperBleeder, on 21 February 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

When they crit it's like .08 dmg!

Your math sucks. Type into a calculator .04 * 12 = .48. Now that's per round hit. Hits crit 42% of the time 10 rounds per second. .48 * 5 = 2.4 cdps per machine gun. And that isn't even counting double and triple crits.

[Dailey]

They just need to add the Heavy Machine Gun. http://www.sarna.net...avy_Machine_Gun

[FupDup]

Dailey, on 21 February 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

They just need to add the Heavy Machine Gun. http://www.sarna.net...avy_Machine_Gun

Seeing the treatment that was given to the normal MG, PGI would make Heavy MGs do 0.06 damage per shot...with 45m effective range.

Edited by FupDup, 21 February 2013 - 10:42 AM.

[shintakie]

MaddMaxx, on 21 February 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Name one (1) weapon that can crit seek with LESS Heat?



The Small laser has 200% more Heat than a MG.

Two points.

1) Name a noncheesy use for a crit seekin weapon.

2) Every possible build one makes usin Small Lasers is almost 100% heat efficient on everythin but the Caldera on Caustic. Not sure what your point is.

[Vassago Rain]

For what it's worth, they work now.

If you have average luck. Which I can't seem to get.

[General Taskeen]

FupDup, on 21 February 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

Seeing the treatment that was given to the normal MG, PGI would make Heavy MGs do 0.06 damage per shot...with 45m effective range.

LoL, true. The Light Machine gun will probably do 0.02 damage, to round out 3 useless Machine Guns.

[Huntsman]

I'd love to know what the devs are thinking with machine guns. I'm going to work under the assumption that the folks responsible for developing this game are reasoning and intelligent folks, not just a bunch of TT purists that insist on doing what they're doing in defiance of reason for no other reason than that their fanaticism for TT is blinding them from the simple fact that this crazy crit system isn't going to translate ino mwo.

Ya want to make machine guns do something unique? I've got no problem with that, but the thinking has got to start from the ground up with what will actually function in this reality.

Machine guns should be able to stand on their own when used on those 30-40 ton mechs that have almost all ballistic slots. They need to be useful from the very first pull of the trigger, not only after the target has lost its armor and is already half dead.

[Znail]

Team Leader, on 20 February 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Its been said that in TT MGs did the same damage as AC2s. I would like to see MGs doing the same DPS, or at least 2 damage a second. Reduce the ammo per ton and make them actually do damage... not .04 damage per bullet. Thats a joke.

That does not work. The AC/2 have enormously buffed DPS in MWO, so you can't use that as a measuring stick without totally breaking the MG. SL is a much better one to use as baseline. A SL has a DPS of 1. If we follow TT standards so would that put the MG at 0.67 DPS. But the MG has to fire continiously to get that DPS so would most likely need a slight buff above that, around 0.8 or 1.0 DPS would work I think.

[Roland]

Ineffigy, on 21 February 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Your math sucks. Type into a calculator .04 * 12 = .48. Now that's per round hit. Hits crit 42% of the time 10 rounds per second. .48 * 5 = 2.4 cdps per machine gun. And that isn't even counting double and triple crits.

Wow, a whole 2.5 "crit" damage per machine gun?

So, if you hold a machine gun on target for a full second, you will have managed to destroy a QUARTER of ONE component in that section.... assuming, of course that all of the crits hit the same component, and aren't scattered across all of the components in that section.

And you think this is good, eh?

[FupDup]

Huntsman, on 21 February 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

I'd love to know what the devs are thinking with machine guns. I'm going to work under the assumption that the folks responsible for developing this game are reasoning and intelligent folks, not just a bunch of TT purists that insist on doing what they're doing in defiance of reason for no other reason than that their fanaticism for TT is blinding them from the simple fact that this crazy crit system isn't going to translate ino mwo.
...

Actually, the irony of this post is that our current MGs are nothing like those from TT. In TT, the MG was basically just a very-short-range AC/2 (with lethal ammo explosions).The "crit seeker only" MG idea was a personal touch fabricated by the devs only. I have no idea why they felt like being different just for the sake of being different.


They've modified TT values on pretty much every weapon (and other equipment) in the game, including MGs (although in the case of MGs it didn't turn out too well).

Edited by FupDup, 21 February 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[Roland]

Yes, machine guns are supposed to be a very light AC2, but with ridiculously short range.

And really, making the machine gun into this type of weapon is the only way that certain mech variants function in anything approaching a useful manner. Like the 4 ballistic Cicada.

[Vassago Rain]

Huntsman, on 21 February 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

I'd love to know what the devs are thinking with machine guns. I'm going to work under the assumption that the folks responsible for developing this game are reasoning and intelligent folks, not just a bunch of TT purists that insist on doing what they're doing in defiance of reason for no other reason than that their fanaticism for TT is blinding them from the simple fact that this crazy crit system isn't going to translate ino mwo.

Ya want to make machine guns do something unique? I've got no problem with that, but the thinking has got to start from the ground up with what will actually function in this reality.

Machine guns should be able to stand on their own when used on those 30-40 ton mechs that have almost all ballistic slots. They need to be useful from the very first pull of the trigger, not only after the target has lost its armor and is already half dead.

They want them to be different to normal weapons, so they don't compete. It's how you get good weapons, like in unreal tournament, but they need to do more base damage, and 'crits' shouldn't be luck based.

I blew every gun off a stalker in moments. Then, the next one wouldn't let me blow his guns. I could get his ammo, but not the PPCs. In another game, I couldn't do anything to a practically naked cata. I hosed him, and didn't do anything at all with the machineguns. Same game, I had already blown up a raven with them to his side torsos.

So yeah. At least they WORK now. They're no longer a waste of space, so I take them on my missile warboss, because 2 tons total, and I have the ballistic slots, anyway.

[Sifright]

MaddMaxx, on 21 February 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Name one (1) weapon that can crit seek with LESS Heat?



The Small laser has 200% more Heat than a MG.

errr.....

No, the small laser has an infinite amount of heat more.....

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