62 replies to this topic

[Roughneck45]

I hope they let us see it eventually.

Much later down the road though, once its been thoroughly tested and refined.

Last thing PGI needs are players getting artificial or bugged ELO scores that they can see, or players trying to dissect the exact scoring system for calculating ELO so they can manipulate it.

Better to keep it hidden, and polish the system. Then let the masses know where they stand.

Edited by Roughneck45, 20 February 2013 - 02:22 PM.

[Sprouticus]

In theory you could create a client network monitoring addon to scrape the people from every match you have and combine them into a database which would track who fights who. You would need it on a lot of machines to get enough data though.

You could then track that over time, correlating it to wins and losses to who has what.

From there you could probably extrapolate a rough ladder of rank. Obviously it would have a +/- close to the max up/down the ELO system might send a single user when they launch.

[Ragor]

Particle Man, on 20 February 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

why would you need to know where you stand?

To be able to put into your sig to show off.

[Bloody Moon]

Particle Man, on 20 February 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

why, so they can wag it around like their e-peen like they do with the useless k/dr? or to find out how high they are so they can skew it down so they get easier matches?

is there an actual good reason to know that i'm not seeing?

In most pvp games i aim for the top 1% of the playerbase and i'd like to get some feedback on how i do currently in MWO.
Contrary to most i won't bring up my stats to brag about them and never use them in an arguement to "prove" my point over another player with lower statistics (except maybe when someone brags about theirs in a bad manner).
I simply like to know how far i am from my goal, is it too much to ask for?

[Kraven Kor]

Z0MBIE Y0SHI, on 20 February 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

...this isn't a physical place that only certain people are allowed, it's a damn number that dictates who you drop against, in other words affects every game I play. I want to see it.

It doesn't have to be public, make it like the current stats. Super secret only you can see.

Because nobody has then used screenshots of their current private stats for e-peen measuring or as source data to manipulate their standings.

Bloody Moon, on 20 February 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

In most pvp games i aim for the top 1% of the playerbase and i'd like to get some feedback on how i do currently in MWO.
Contrary to most i won't bring up my stats to brag about them and never use them in an arguement to "prove" my point over another player with lower statistics (except maybe when someone brags about theirs in a bad manner).
I simply like to know how far i am from my goal, is it too much to ask for?

LOL.

You realize you just did bring up your stats to use in an argument, yes?

[Z0MBIE Y0SHI]

Kraven Kor, on 20 February 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

...so?

Does it really bother you THAT much that you'd rather it be censored all together?

[ObsidianSpectre]

Helmer, on 20 February 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

There will be other stats in which to judge your own prowess.

Other stats won't let you accurately judge your own skill levels except at the very lowest and highest levels of play.

Consider this example:

Player A averages 600 damage, 3 kills, and 0.25 decapitation kills per match. His opponents are generally pretty poor, they don't evade or use cover, they walk in straight lines towards him, and shots they take miss pretty often. He can do alright by taking his time lining up his shots, and doesn't usually have to worry too much about lasting long enough to be effective.

Player B averages 600 damage, 3 kills, and 0.25 decapitation kills per match. His opponents are fast and wily, evading and using cover, and only show themselves for brief moments while they take their shots, which they do with pinpoint accuracy. Player B often only has fractions of a second to take shots that present themselves, and constantly has to maneuver and evade to avoid being cored before she can do anything in the match.

Both players have the same stats, but Player B is almost certainly a much better player, and would likely have much better stats than Player A if she were in the same environment.

That's only looking at the opponent side of the equation too. Having higher skill levels on your own team can also mean lower stats, since you'll have less of an opportunity to get them.

For whatever stat you can come up with aside from your Elo ranking itself, stats are not going to be strongly correlated with skill because it'll take ever higher skill to maintain the same stats as the Elo score rises. It's perfectly plausible that a better player will have worse stats than a lesser skilled player, because it's just so much harder for them to get good stats when matched with highly skilled opponents & teammates. Non-Elo score stats are only really going to give an indication of skill at the very lowest levels of play, where players don't have any further to fall if they're bad at the game, or the very highest levels, where they don't have any further to rise.

Quote

ELO is , and from what I understand always will be, a hidden stat.

It is now, but they never said it will always be so. I don't think they've committed either way.

Edited by ObsidianSpectre, 20 February 2013 - 03:11 PM.

[Broceratops]

FrDrake, on 20 February 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

Hidden Elo score at this point. After you've been playing a few weeks, the skill of your average opponent is where you can guess you are at.

the skill of your average opponent will always be 'challenging' to your perspective because they are about the same as you, so no. there is basically no way to know you're high elo unless you win 70%+

[Kraven Kor]

Z0MBIE Y0SHI, on 20 February 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

...so?

Does it really bother you THAT much that you'd rather it be censored all together?

Honestly?

I could care less.

I'll never be in the top percentile of players, and thus could really care less about my stats (though it would be nice to have lots of stats to look at just to know how I am doing.)

I just know how gamers are, and having our ELO scores visible would turn it into a ******* match, and I just want to see those type of players miserable, to be honest.

My desire to have ELO remain a hidden stat is solely based on schadenfreude, and hating the type of player who rages on Teamspeak about how he is "in the top 100 players in the world, the other team is cheating!" while stuck on terrain and getting clobbered.

Seriously. Just keep it hidden, so even if someone is the best player in the world, it can't be proven.

[ObsidianSpectre]

Kraven Kor, on 20 February 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

Honestly?

I could care less.

I'll never be in the top percentile of players, and thus could really care less about my stats (though it would be nice to have lots of stats to look at just to know how I am doing.)

I just know how gamers are, and having our ELO scores visible would turn it into a ******* match, and I just want to see those type of players miserable, to be honest.

My desire to have ELO remain a hidden stat is solely based on schadenfreude, and hating the type of player who rages on Teamspeak about how he is "in the top 100 players in the world, the other team is cheating!" while stuck on terrain and getting clobbered.

Seriously. Just keep it hidden, so even if someone is the best player in the world, it can't be proven.

Honestly, this is close to why I'm on the fence about displaying Elo scores.

I want to know how I'm doing, where I stand and whether I'm improving or not, but I don't really want the larger population to know the same about themselves. It seems to encourage bad behavior in a lot of people - I don't ever want the forums to adopt the mentality of "lol your elo is 200 less than mine so I won't listen to anything you say until you l2p n00b". I don't want people to have any advantage in looking for ways to manipulate their Elo to the detriment of others. I don't want to hear that bitching on TS about how they have a high Elo score, so any difficulty they face is clearly the fault of the rest of their team.

So I'm still not sure that showing Elo is a good idea. I want to see it, and I know a lot of other players will be interested in it and won't react poorly to it, but I'm not sure it's worth the cost that the community will incur due to all those other people.

Edited by ObsidianSpectre, 20 February 2013 - 03:19 PM.

[Bloody Moon]

Kraven Kor, on 20 February 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

LOL.

You realize you just did bring up your stats to use in an argument, yes?

I'm not bringing up my stats, i bring up the fact that i don't know them at all. What i was referring to in my post is that i'd never use it to degrade another players opinion in for example a balance discussion.

[Rakashan]

Bloody Moon, on 20 February 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

In most pvp games i aim for the top 1% of the playerbase and i'd like to get some feedback on how i do currently in MWO.
Contrary to most i won't bring up my stats to brag about them and never use them in an arguement to "prove" my point over another player with lower statistics (except maybe when someone brags about theirs in a bad manner).
I simply like to know how far i am from my goal, is it too much to ask for?

I get being competitive, but try taking off the blinders for a minute. Your answer admits that you get that there are some, perhaps many who would use this information to be ***hats. You should know by this time that a company cannot make a special exception. "Oh, you won't be an ***hat so you can find out your ELO but he cannot." This is not personal or anything on the part of PGI. ELO is hidden so that it cannot be manipulated by people to continue the "PUGstomping" that so many hope it resolves. If ELO is public it can be analyzed and quantified so that anyone who wants to can methodically lower his ELO and get into a regime where he can make lower ELO players miserable.

[Particle Man]

Like is aid already. there are actual real stats on the way. there's no need for this stat that can be easily used to abuse the system and that might not mean anything to anyone anyway considering we have no real idea what is used to gauge it.

[Bloody Moon]

Rakashan, on 20 February 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

I get being competitive, but try taking off the blinders for a minute. Your answer admits that you get that there are some, perhaps many who would use this information to be ***hats. You should know by this time that a company cannot make a special exception. "Oh, you won't be an ***hat so you can find out your ELO but he cannot." This is not personal or anything on the part of PGI. ELO is hidden so that it cannot be manipulated by people to continue the "PUGstomping" that so many hope it resolves. If ELO is public it can be analyzed and quantified so that anyone who wants to can methodically lower his ELO and get into a regime where he can make lower ELO players miserable.

Point is that if they make it visible like the stats we can observe right now, they won't harm anyone, but will let us measure ourselves compared to our own previous statistics.

[Khobai]

If your ELO is negative it doesnt show up on your stats page

[Avalios]

Kain, on 20 February 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

It doesn't really matter does it? ELO is not some kind of online leaderboard..

Actually ELO was designed to be a leaderboard.
Devoloped for chess to rank players and determine the best in the world.

[Rakashan]

Bloody Moon, on 20 February 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

Point is that if they make it visible like the stats we can observe right now, they won't harm anyone, but will let us measure ourselves compared to our own previous statistics.

Errrmm... No. That was my point.

In WoW, people spent time analyzing changes of their own number closely enough that we could reverse engineer the entire combat system. It would be a much simpler task to reverse engineer the change of my ELO based on my own actions match after match, especially if I am running 8v8s where I could hope for slightly more control or information about my opponents.

Once I have reversed the equations, I have complete control of my own ELO which allows me to be an ***hat at will if I want to be.

So again, while you might have intentions pure as the driven snow and want to use the information to become more competitive, simply making it public allows others to manipulate it.

[Symbiodinium]

Rakashan, on 20 February 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

If ELO is public it can be analyzed and quantified so that anyone who wants to can methodically lower his ELO and get into a regime where he can make lower ELO players miserable.

A player who wants to do nothing but noobstomp can intentionally lose whether or not his ELO is public. I've seen guys in Starcraft 2 say at the beginning of the round "Here kill my drones I'm headed down to bronze league to pwn noobs lol", and ELO is not public in SC2. SC2 does, however, place players in leagues (bronze/silver/gold etc.) which correspond to a percentage of the player base, so a player knows roughly where they stand. SC2 is one of (if not the) biggest e-sport out there, and PGI has said they want to be a force in the e-sports realm.

I don't necessarily want to know my ELO, but I would like some sort of indication of my skill relative to other players. W/L, K/D, etc. by themselves are not very good analogues.

Edited by Symbiodinium, 20 February 2013 - 03:40 PM.

[Rakashan]

For those interested in knowing how they rank, keep in mind. Once ELO is fairly well established you can judge your degree of improvement by tracking your W/L ratio. If you are around 0.5 then you are holding even. If you are above that then you are winning more than half the matches the MM thinks are balanced for you (i.e. improving). This is only applicable once you are well seeded and then only over a large number of matches.

Ideally we'd see leagues as in StarCraft and I expect that to happen long-term if PGI is serious about e-sport. In the meantime though, I believe that the way to see yourself at the top is a longterm win percentage over about 70%. At that point you are either climbing into the stratosphere or have gotten there and expect a healthy win percentage over the best we have to pair you with.

[Broceratops]

once stats are rest, win % will be used as the epeen like in WoT. if you have under 50 you'll be considered ****.