22 replies to this topic

[Duckwalk]

With the growing prevalence of sniper builds, first seen heavily in RHoD and now leaking into the pub masses I started thinking about possible means of de-incentivizing the use of gauss and to an extent PPCs.

Regarding Gauss, I think they are still too powerful at brawling distance as they effectively suffer very little drawback (aside from low overall health). I think they could stand to see their damage/minute reduced (same alpha, longer reload time).

PPCs seem to be in a good place right now between the 90 meter minimum on standard PPCs and the much higher heat on the ER PPCs.

However, Gauss and PPC weapon balance is beside the point of this post (sorry for the rambling).

A different option to curbing the boating of sniper weapons would be to add a cloaking or stealth effect to forests/trees. Currently trees only seem to obscure heat signature, I think it would go a long way towards adding more depth to the game if trees/forests would also cut your sensor range by a certain percent as well.

Not only would this dovetail into module usage (extended sensor range etc.) but it would solve some of the issue people are having with alpine being too big and too open by providing cover to close distance on long range mechs while not being physical protection from direct fire if spotted.

Yes, this is stolen directly from World of Tank but a similar system would work well in MWO and add another element of strategy by being able to at least attempt to hide the movement of some of your force.

Additionally, it would give scouts additional uses.

Thoughts on this? Would players like to see terrain effects that limit sensor range as well as heat signature?

-Duck

Edited by Duckwalk, 21 February 2013 - 12:44 AM.

[Chavette]

I wanna see ECM, just for lasers, name it "mirror shield coating" or something, all lasers would reflect off, and it could even come back at you!!

[Carrioncrows]

I had an idea located here: http://mwomercs.com/...eedback-thread/

The idea was built around a Mech Signature or M-Sig. Basicly the range you are detectable by the enemy. There are different things you could do to skew that M-SIG higher (you can be detected at further ranges) or lower (remain undetected closer to the enemy)

Some of those ideas were ECM, Null Sig and the single most important thing a mechwarrior could do. Turn off Active Sensors.
By turning off active sensors they would lose the ability to lock on to targets and gain targeting information but it would allow them to remain undetected on sensors until they were much closer.

I like the idea of stealth and EW warfare outside of just "oh look he has ECM" features.

I think your on the right track. =)

Edited by Carrioncrows, 20 February 2013 - 11:51 PM.

[One Medic Army]

I would not be against terrain reducing sensor range, in fact it sounds intriguing, if possibly difficult to implement.

[Orgasmo]

We already have stealth in the game, and it's called ECM. It combines the function of Guardian ECM suite, Angel ECM suite and Stealth Armor from BT lore. The best thing is it only weights 1.5 tons and occupies 2 slots.

BOOYAH!

[Duckwalk]

Essentially the way World of Tanks does it, line of sight is based off a point from the commander's hatch to either the front, back, or top of enemy tanks around you. If they are inside of your view range and you have LOS to one of those point, you can see him.

Assuming you have a base detection range of 100 meters. If a tank is hiding behind an obstacle and you have no LOS he is invisible to you (unless a teammate can see him and you are close enough to be in contact with your teammate in which case you can see him too).

Bushes reduce your the distance people can spot you at. So while you might be able to spot at tank in the open at 100 meters, if that same tank was completely covered by bushes you would need to close to 80 meters in order to spot him.

Lots of World of Tanks talk in a MWO forum I know but I think factors like this would add further depth to the game and if we arnt going to talk about them now (in beta) then when are we.

[RapierE01]

in some of the Books the Mechs were able to close their Heatsink exhausts. So the Mech is harder to detect by Heat vision. Nevertheless the heat rises into the sky if a weapon is fired while you do this.

Edited by RapierE01, 21 February 2013 - 12:12 AM.

[jakucha]

WoT line of sight is a terrible idea for this. I want to see what my eyes see, not what the game engine thinks I wouldn't be able to see.

[RapierE01]

If they use the Wot los mechanics in Mwo i will switch back to Wot. Because it would be worse if a Raven Warp beside your Atlas and shoot you. During this Lrm would start out of your sight from invisible Enemy Mechs and hit your Mech. No bad idea.

But PGI could use the Terrain to affect the thermal optics. Trees and bushes are Heat sources too. Still a Rock is a bit warmer than Water. Or if a Mech could crouch like in MW3 it would change something.

And your Poll is broken. You cannot choose "no" without choosing one of the options in the "if yes, how would you prefer stealth factors be determined" Poll.

Edited by RapierE01, 21 February 2013 - 12:19 AM.

[Duckwalk]

Yes, WoT has many flaws in its spotting system. I was giving people who havn't played it a quick run down for discussion purposes.

That said, I think their system does introduce some interesting elements like the definition of scout classes as more than just fast tanks (as they normally have bonuses to vision distance and camouflage).

With all the posts about "role warfare" the addition of some of these system would go a long way towards defining the role of lights and mediums.

[Rift Hawk]

This poll is rigged. Had to vote module because it won't let me submit NO by itself lol.

Anyway, as if ECM isn't bad enough now people want "stealth" items ? **** it why not throw in a cloaking device that way the splat cats and run right up to your face and wave at you with their bay doors before they bend you over.........

Sorry about being a jerk but this is a horrible idea.

[Duckwalk]

RapierE01, on 21 February 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

If they use the Wot los mechanics in Mwo i will switch back to Wot. Because it would be worse if a Raven Warp beside your Atlas and shoot you. During this Lrm would start out of your sight from invisible Enemy Mechs and hit your Mech. No bad idea.

But PGI could use the Terrain to affect the thermal optics. Trees and bushes are Heat sources too. Still a Rock is a bit warmer than Water.

I think causing mechs to disappear completely would be horrible for the game. However, if cover blocked your targeting signal (or reduced it a certain percentage) that would work. Similar to how mech under a ECM umbrella operate. You can see them but you dont get the pretty red box.

Edited by Duckwalk, 21 February 2013 - 12:23 AM.

[Duckwalk]

And sorry for the bad poll I dont have much experience making them.

Added another no option for the second question.

[Mr Mantis]

I use stealth all the time, i don't think we need a module to help with that. Just recently they added a targeted warning which made it more difficult to pull off, but if you are smart about it they wont think twice about being targeted. Also on the topic of stealth It is not 3075 yet.

[Duckwalk]

Imperial X, on 21 February 2013 - 12:19 AM, said:

why not throw in a cloaking device that way the splat cats and run right up to your face and wave at you with their bay doors before they bend you over.........

Well, as it is right now the game seems to be gravitating towards massed PPC and Gauss builds because of the lack of option to close distance undetected besides 1. Rush cave 2. Weave through building.

Poptarts make the use of small hills and building hard too.

[Duckwalk]

Mr Mantis, on 21 February 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

I use stealth all the time, i don't think we need a module to help with that. Just recently they added a targeted warning which made it more difficult to pull off, but if you are smart about it they wont think twice about being targeted. Also on the topic of stealth It is not 3075 yet.

Well bad word choice on my part then. I'm not suggesting additions which would make mechs physically disappear.

What I'm suggesting is essentially adding passive ECM to forests and trees as well as the possibilty of modules and pilot skills which would further increase or decrease the effect of that passive ECM.

The point of these additions to the game would be to:

1.facilitate concealed movement of mech forces (for flanking, closing on ranged mechs, etc) As the game currently stand, unless you run ECM, as soon as you come into range you pop up on enemy radar with a distinctive "ping".

2. further define the roles of mediums and lights, as scouts and fast striking harassers.

[DerHuhnTeufel]

The only thing I'd like to see is a "stealth coating" available to light mechs. All it does is prevent enemies from locking onto you at ranges greater than 250 meters unless you are tagged or targeted by another enemy team mate. Right now, someone with a 360 module can instantly know you are behind them thanks to radar, which makes scouting a royal pain in anything that doesn't have ECM.

[Duckwalk]

Eh, tried to fix the poll but ended up messing it worse than before as it allocated peoples answers to different options than they originally selected.

[Larth]

Well, in the tabletop game most info is handled by los. Not really noticable in standard mode, but in double blind it becomes more so. It would then make things like the Beagle Active Probe be serve a purpose. We have a module that currently can extend sensor range, I don't see why the opposite couldn't happen. Knowing how to manipulate your heat vents, using cover, etc to reduce your signature, thereby getting closer before the mostly los active sensors go "Oooh badguy!" I know you couldn't 'see' mechs through a certain amount of woods, don't know if MWO has that yet...course not much in the wooded department on the maps (yet). Forest fighting will be interesting.

BTW, double blind rules fighting in a forest map sucks....especially when your both in heavy woods. Our ref said we walked within two hexes of each other multiple times. Funny, but frustrating. Wanted to say, "I park my mech and open the hatch and LISTEN for crashing sounds."

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

Duckwalk, on 20 February 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

A different option to curbing the boating of sniper weapons would be to add a cloaking or stealth effect to forests/trees.

Hah, I bet it would make life even easier for snipers.
I'm strictly against any cloaking. According to TT the target in the woods must be seen, but must be harder to hit. Maybe the destructible terrain will do the trick as the trees would take up damage on them.